Tang in QT not doing well suddenly

Jberge

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I got this gold rim tang last Sunday and put him in QT. He was showing signs of ick so I started dosing copper and reached a therapeutic level by Tuesday. He was eating nori and seemed to be doing well until tonight I found him hiding and breathing heavily. He does swim lethargically and dazed. I did a 10g wc on the 20g tank and started carbon. I have 2 ammonia badges on the tank reading safe. I just preformed a FW dip but I don’t think I saw any flukes and the condition doesn’t appear to have changed now back in the tank. Should I remove the carbon and start prazi now or is there another course of action I should take or none at all? TIA!
 

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Jberge

Jberge

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Possible over dose of copper ?
If you start prazi it might worsen his condition
For the copper I dosed the exact same amount as previous fish and it’s been almost a week at full strength. It seems like there’s not much to do at the moment but I don’t have a good feeling
 
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Jberge

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Update- he’s still alive this morning. I don’t believe his condition has gotten any better. He’s hiding behind some pvc but is at least upright. I forgot to mention I have had an air stone in there for a couple days now. Is there anything I should do before leaving for work?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Update- he’s still alive this morning. I don’t believe his condition has gotten any better. He’s hiding behind some pvc but is at least upright. I forgot to mention I have had an air stone in there for a couple days now. Is there anything I should do before leaving for work?
What copper product were you using, what dose, and what test kit?
Many people think they are seeing copper toxicity when actually, that is pretty specific to certain species unless there is a dosing problem.
Jay
 
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Jberge

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What copper product were you using, what dose, and what test kit?
Many people think they are seeing copper toxicity when actually, that is pretty specific to certain species unless there is a dosing problem.
Jay
Thanks for the response. I’m under the impression that it has nothing to do with the copper but idk. I was using coppersafe. The tank is 20g, I dosed 9.6ml 3 times over 3 days to give me 1.8ppm based on 16g total water. I have a seachem test kit but never tested the water. I generally feel that if the math and dosing is correct there’s no reason to test. If the copper was an issue, is there anything I can do besides the large wc and carbon I did last night?
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the response. I’m under the impression that it has nothing to do with the copper but idk. I was using coppersafe. The tank is 20g, I dosed 9.6ml 3 times over 3 days to give me 1.8ppm based on 16g total water. I have a seachem test kit but never tested the water. I generally feel that if the math and dosing is correct there’s no reason to test. If the copper was an issue, is there anything I can do besides the large wc and carbon I did last night?
Wait, you should check your math again: If the tank is 16 gallons, and the full dose for coppersafe is 5 ml per four gallons, so in this case, 20 ml. That will take you to around 2.25 ppm. You added 28.8 ml, or 50% too much.

Jay
 
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Jberge

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What copper product were you using, what dose, and what test kit?
Many people think they are seeing copper toxicity when actually, that is pretty specific to certain species unless there is a dosing problem.
Jay
I have 2 thoughts now, possibly there was residual copper left in my QT despite the 75% WC and carbon that had been running before adding the new fish which resulted in over dosing, or its flukes. He had been at the same level of copper for 6 days before this behavior started so I’m not sure if an overdose would take that long to affect a fish. I’m testing the copper level now even though I did a 10g WC last night to dilute the water whether ammonia or copper. Ammonia badges still read 0. I’m attaching a video to show how he’s hovering and moving at the moment. Does this look like a result of copper, flukes, or something else? I’m wondering if I should start prazi now to be safe or if that’s too stressful.
 

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Wait, you should check your math again: If the tank is 16 gallons, and the full dose for coppersafe is 5 ml per four gallons, so in this case, 20 ml. That will take you to around 2.25 ppm. You added 28.8 ml, or 50% too much.

Jay
Sorry, I just saw this response. I had read a post by @Brew12 that the proper amount of coppersafe should be 1.6-2.1 ml per gallon. I believe my dosage of 28.8 equals 1.8 ml/gal for 16g
 
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Jberge

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Sorry, I just saw this response. I had read a post by @Brew12 that the proper amount of coppersafe should be 1.6-2.1 ml per gallon. I believe my dosage of 28.8 equals 1.8 ml/gal for 16g
I used to use cupramine until my last batch of QT fish I switched to coppersafe where I had a sailfin and flame angel at 1.8ml/gal
 
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Jay Hemdal

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Sorry, I just saw this response. I had read a post by @Brew12 that the proper amount of coppersafe should be 1.6-2.1 ml per gallon. I believe my dosage of 28.8 equals 1.8 ml/gal for 16g
The label instructions work out to be 1.25 ml per gallon, and that's how I've always dosed it. Are you sure they didn't mean 1.6 to 2.1 ppm? I know a lot of people prefer to go with a lower dose. I stick with the full dose myself, have done it that way for 40 years and never had a toxic reaction.

Jay
 

Jay Hemdal

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Not sure if the video went through. I’m trying again
I don't see any ich now. The paddle fin swimming movement and rapid breathing could be three things: Velvet, ammonia or copper toxicity. There are other possible causes, but those are rarer.

Jay
 
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I don't see any ich now. The paddle fin swimming movement and rapid breathing could be three things: Velvet, ammonia or copper toxicity. There are other possible causes, but those are rarer.

Jay
Thank you for your help! I just did another 60% WC and I’ll see how he’s doing in the morning. Are the effects of copper toxicity reversible? Btw, here’s a link for the article about coppersafes dosing. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/
I’ll give an update tomorrow. Thanks again!

Along with always running an airstone in my QT, I frequently check Ammonia and Salinity.
Thanks, I forgot to mention there is an air stone also
 

Jay Hemdal

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I see, but don't agree. It is a very slippery slope to go against label instructions for a product. I've used a spectrophotometer to measure coppersafe at full dose and it ran 2.25 to 2.5 for me. I want to run more replicates, but for the time being, I'm sticking with the label instructions.

Jay


Thank you for your help! I just did another 60% WC and I’ll see how he’s doing in the morning. Are the effects of copper toxicity reversible? Btw, here’s a link for the article about coppersafes dosing. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/proper-dosing-of-coppersafe.309726/
I’ll give an update tomorrow. Thanks again!


Thanks, I forgot to mention there is an air stone also
 

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I see, but don't agree. It is a very slippery slope to go against label instructions for a product. I've used a spectrophotometer to measure coppersafe at full dose and it ran 2.25 to 2.5 for me. I want to run more replicates, but for the time being, I'm sticking with the label instructions.

Jay
Jay, that link goes back a few years. The Fritz Coppersafe product was very inconsistent but my numbers at that point came from this email correspondence from Fritz.

"Our research has determined that when used per label directions Coppersafe will yield a copper level of 1.16 to 1.17 ppm. At this level there are no fish mortalities in controlled experiments. Gill damage is not observed in treated fish exposed to this dosage level. This is due to the sophisticated chelating agent used on the formula.""

The consensus was that 5ml/4g yielding 1.16ppm copper was not high enough for proper treatment. Unfortunately, several of us used the Hanna checker on multiple bottles of Coppersafe of different years of manufacture and we found that it was very inconsistent.

Edit: I also have noticed that they now state on the website that Coppersafe will yield approximately 2ppm when dosed at 5ml/4g so they may have changed the concentration of the product since that email exchange with them.
 
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Jberge

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I see, but don't agree. It is a very slippery slope to go against label instructions for a product. I've used a spectrophotometer to measure coppersafe at full dose and it ran 2.25 to 2.5 for me. I want to run more replicates, but for the time being, I'm sticking with the label instructions.

Jay
That’s interesting. I appreciate the heads up! I checked in on him this morning and without turning on too much light I could only see him sleeping or hanging out behind the pvc. I’ll have my daughter check later since I’m at work
 
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Jberge

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Update- I can’t get a video because he’s swimming through the pvc at the moment but his breathing seems to be much slower, the paddle fin swimming has stopped and he’s moving with more control. The way he’s going back and forth through the same fitting seems strange but maybe it’s just stress. Overall, I think physically he looks much better
 
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Jberge

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I see, but don't agree. It is a very slippery slope to go against label instructions for a product. I've used a spectrophotometer to measure coppersafe at full dose and it ran 2.25 to 2.5 for me. I want to run more replicates, but for the time being, I'm sticking with the label instructions.

Jay
Jay, I cane home to find the tang on the bottom of the tank. The past few days he’d been swimming around but I didn’t see him eat any food or nori and he looked pale. I did another WC last night to ensure clean water. He has a blotch under his fin with a white outline. Do you have any last ditch ideas for me because it doesn’t look like he’s gonna make it. Here’s a pic. Thanks
 

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