Tangs help needed!

Jjd531

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I have a purple and yellow tang which are not doing well today. The yellow tang i noticed had degradation of his back fins and I've been adding stress zhyme to promote healing. I also treated them for ich an have had them in the tank since January without ich. I have 6 other fish that are all fine it just seems to be my tangs. Today neither my yellow or purple tang who have been acting normal are eating. They they have white spots which don't appear to resemble ich but im not sure. They didn't stop eating when they had ich either. They are sitting near the sand bed and it looked like my purple tang may have possibly been trying to rub on the sand if that means anything. Their breathing isn't exceptionally heavy either. I have tanks I can quarantine them in if needed but im not really sure what im dealing with. Especially since it showed up so quick. I'm probably gonna do a 50% water change tomorrow and go from there if the fish aren't better and put them into quarantine. I also treated them with copper when I treated the ich. As you can see in the pictures they appear to have white spots on their bodies and fins they are also sticking very close to the sanded and not really swimming around but just staying in place. They are usually very active and responsive to food. I also included a photo of the degradation on the yellow tangs fins, it looks 'scabbed'

16172465466133969743387536547019.jpg 20210331_231135.jpg 20210331_231227.jpg 16172476179069005957561359009000.jpg
 
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NexisG

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Im not 100% sure either but those symptoms sound very similer to when I got velvet in my tank. The only other thing I had was swimming in front of power heads to get more oxygen. Id wait and see if anyone else has a second opinion but if you do your gonna wanna quarantine asap with a full dose of copper.
 

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I can't help diagnose any disease, but I wonder if you feed your tangs any nori/seaweed? I believe they are primarily herbivores that won't prosper without sufficient quantities of plant-based food.
 
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Jjd531

Jjd531

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I can't help diagnose any disease, but I wonder if you feed your tangs any nori/seaweed? I believe they are primarily herbivores that won't prosper without sufficient quantities of plant-based food.
I do add some seaweeds probably not as often as I should though but I do provide herbivores flakes.
 
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Jay Hemdal

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I have a purple and yellow tang which are not doing well today. The yellow tang i noticed had degradation of his back fins and I've been adding stress zhyme to promote healing. I also treated them for ich an have had them in the tank since January without ich. I have 6 other fish that are all fine it just seems to be my tangs. Today neither my yellow or purple tang who have been acting normal are eating. They they have white spots which don't appear to resemble ich but im not sure. They didn't stop eating when they had ich either. They are sitting near the sand bed and it looked like my purple tang may have possibly been trying to rub on the sand if that means anything. Their breathing isn't exceptionally heavy either. I have tanks I can quarantine them in if needed but im not really sure what im dealing with. Especially since it showed up so quick. I'm probably gonna do a 50% water change tomorrow and go from there if the fish aren't better and put them into quarantine. I also treated them with copper when I treated the ich. As you can see in the pictures they appear to have white spots on their bodies and fins they are also sticking very close to the sanded and not really swimming around but just staying in place. They are usually very active and responsive to food. I also included a photo of the degradation on the yellow tangs fins, it looks 'scabbed'

16172465466133969743387536547019.jpg 20210331_231135.jpg 20210331_231227.jpg 16172476179069005957561359009000.jpg
If you can post a short video, that might help us.

The scalloped fins on the YT are from HLLE, and that isn't fatal, but it is a bit disfiguring. The lack of rapid breathing tends to rule out Velvet. In the one blue picture, the YT eye looks messed up, are all of the eyes like that? In the end, this is probably one of the turbellarian worm infections (known as black ich). Here is a section from my upcoming disease book on that topic:

Turbellarian Infection (a.k.a. black spot disease, black ich, tang disease)
Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.
Often self-limiting
The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.

Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should a treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is one type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

It’s also noteworthy that treatment with freshwater dips may contort the worm’s body shape so much that positive identification is difficult. In some cases, no real symptoms are seen until fish loss occurs. Under the microscope, look for an oval-shaped worm with a pair of dark eyespots.

Treatment options
Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:
● Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.
● A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.
● Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.
● Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.
● Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay
 

Rickybobby

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Ok so jay has been working with me on my blue tang. Which looks identical to mine. Seems to be a serious of hlle. Lympho and diet.
I put my tang In qt. Kanaplex. Prazipro lots of good food. The hlle went away within a week. Some my lymph I think still. Well shows it still. I had no idea that I had two bags of chemi pure elite in my back chamber. That didn’t help.
this pic is in the fresh water dip. Will be doing another round of prazipro. Am now feeding roe. Selcon. Frozen abs today my own frozen food of the best fish and mollusks
 

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Jjd531

Jjd531

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If you can post a short video, that might help us.

The scalloped fins on the YT are from HLLE, and that isn't fatal, but it is a bit disfiguring. The lack of rapid breathing tends to rule out Velvet. In the one blue picture, the YT eye looks messed up, are all of the eyes like that? In the end, this is probably one of the turbellarian worm infections (known as black ich). Here is a section from my upcoming disease book on that topic:

Turbellarian Infection (a.k.a. black spot disease, black ich, tang disease)
Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.
Often self-limiting
The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.

Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should a treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is one type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

It’s also noteworthy that treatment with freshwater dips may contort the worm’s body shape so much that positive identification is difficult. In some cases, no real symptoms are seen until fish loss occurs. Under the microscope, look for an oval-shaped worm with a pair of dark eyespots.

Treatment options
Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:
● Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.
● A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.
● Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.
● Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.
● Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay
It doesn't look back necessarily except for behind around the fins but I still have my doubt about it being ich. I'm nervous considering the fish stopped eating very fast. I'm also nervous about treating with most of that. Will this likely clear up on its own if I pick up more water changes? Also is this transmissable like do all my fish probably have it? I'll try to get a video of it swimming as well, although they aren't really swimming much.
 
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Jjd531

Jjd531

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If you can post a short video, that might help us.

The scalloped fins on the YT are from HLLE, and that isn't fatal, but it is a bit disfiguring. The lack of rapid breathing tends to rule out Velvet. In the one blue picture, the YT eye looks messed up, are all of the eyes like that? In the end, this is probably one of the turbellarian worm infections (known as black ich). Here is a section from my upcoming disease book on that topic:

Turbellarian Infection (a.k.a. black spot disease, black ich, tang disease)
Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.
Often self-limiting
The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.

Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should a treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is one type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

It’s also noteworthy that treatment with freshwater dips may contort the worm’s body shape so much that positive identification is difficult. In some cases, no real symptoms are seen until fish loss occurs. Under the microscope, look for an oval-shaped worm with a pair of dark eyespots.

Treatment options
Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:
● Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.
● A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.
● Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.
● Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.
● Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay
Here's a picture from today. I'm thinking bacterial, fungal, or worms. As you can see the tang is using my rocks for support today, he also has what appears to be white/fluffy puss around the ends of his tail. He also looks very emaciated but still won't eat even when I added garlic gaurd. My purple tang is nowhere to be seen but was doing better than the yellow tang yesterday but also not eating and acting slow. All of my other fish are still acting and eating normal just the tangs are not doing well. In the picture his tail is resting on a coral but you can clearly see the white puss im talking towards the end of his tail. His breathing still does not look heavy. Dare I say it looks shallow.
 

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Jjd531

Jjd531

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@Jay Hemdal both of my tangs are dead today in 24 hours. The purple i found dead behind the rocks the yellow died where he was sitting. The other fish all still appear fine visually and behavior wise. I cannot believe they succumbed to this disease so quickly. I was changing water on my QT to add them in but by the time I was done I found the yellow one passed and upon looking through rocks that the purple tang had passed too. I have a couple videos and pictures. I plan to do a fin/skin scrape on both of them today and try to identify something under a microscope. If I can get photos of my microscope findings ill report back here. Otherwise I really don't have words for how quickly these fish died I barely had time to process there was anything wrong before they died. Just awful, I treated them through ick which was my first qt and they were fine for 3 months before all this. They stopped eating and swimming around yesterday I didn't think they would succumb so quickly. RIP :(
 

Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal both of my tangs are dead today in 24 hours. The purple i found dead behind the rocks the yellow died where he was sitting. The other fish all still appear fine visually and behavior wise. I cannot believe they succumbed to this disease so quickly. I was changing water on my QT to add them in but by the time I was done I found the yellow one passed and upon looking through rocks that the purple tang had passed too. I have a couple videos and pictures. I plan to do a fin/skin scrape on both of them today and try to identify something under a microscope. If I can get photos of my microscope findings ill report back here. Otherwise I really don't have words for how quickly these fish died I barely had time to process there was anything wrong before they died. Just awful, I treated them through ick which was my first qt and they were fine for 3 months before all this. They stopped eating and swimming around yesterday I didn't think they would succumb so quickly. RIP :(
Sorry to hear. The only infectious disease I know of that kills within 24 hours from first onset of symptoms is velvet, Amyloodinium, and even that usually gives you 48 hours advance notice. The lack of rapid breathing though means that wasn't it. Try to scrape a couple of those black spots and look at them under a scope at lower power - look for a pair of dark eye spots - that would mean turbellarian worms.

Jay
 
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Jjd531

Jjd531

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Sorry to hear. The only infectious disease I know of that kills within 24 hours from first onset of symptoms is velvet, Amyloodinium, and even that usually gives you 48 hours advance notice. The lack of rapid breathing though means that wasn't it. Try to scrape a couple of those black spots and look at them under a scope at lower power - look for a pair of dark eye spots - that would mean turbellarian worms.

Jay
So I've been messing with the scope for a while and yielded two photos. We couldn't really find anything with stain either so I'm really not sure. I'm gonna try to get some more samples and pictures and go from there. Gonna attempt more staining too. I couldn't identify any pairs of black dots but did see black dots. The first photo is of a scraping from the top dorsal fin where the "scabbing" had occurred. We took some from the bottom with similar results. The second photo is a clipping from the tail. You can see all the spikes which are part of the skin textures and black dots which im not sure about what they are. If I yield anything else ill report back and post more photos. I haven't taken any samples from the purple tang but I figured I'd get better visuals off the yellow samples. The purple tang was also more heavily degenerated than the yellow tang not sure who died first but my CUC was on top of the purple tang, so it no longer had eyes and fins were torn as well as lungs but not sure if some of the fin damage was due to disease. Although it looked better than the yellow tang last night it must have progressed just as fast.
Edit: I'll also add all of my other fish all still appear fine. They are eating and swimming normally, and have no sign of emancipation in their stomaches like the yellow tang had near the end.

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Jjd531

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@Jay Hemdal lastly i have this video which was 3-4 hours before the tang finally passed.
 

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