Tank crashing suddenly?!

[MnFish1]

So lets just keep pouring stability in our tank daily, nothing bad gonna happen here, I promise everything will be just fine. Wait isnt this the post where everything just died? Whoops yeah stability good with fish more the better.

You're paraphrasing my post for unclear reasons and - if I do say so myself - somewhat poorly. - I did not say 'pour stability into your tank every day' or 'the more the better or 'I promise everything will be just fine'. What I actually said was:
"MnFish1 said: Stability is a cycling bacteria product. It's used when cycling a new tank OR - adding new bio load to a relatively immature tank. It's pretty simple here."

Stability is not designed as a daily 365 days/year product, nor did I say it was. Additionally, any product - if over-used can cause problems. So my comment was based on the assumption that the OP followed the instructions on the bottle (Which is why I posted a link to the instructions below my post). Additionally - I do not think that stability is what caused 'everything to die' in the OP's tank - if it was used correctly - and unless we hear different - I assume thats the case.

EDIT - here is a quote from the directions:

"Directions
Shake well before use. Turn off UV/ozone. Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 40 L (10 US gallons) on the first day with a new aquarium. Then use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 US gallons) daily for 7 days. Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days. For optimum biofilter performance use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 US gallons) once a month or with each water change and whenever introducing new fish or whenever medicating an aquarium. Product shelf life is 4 years from date of manufacture."

 

[Rmckoy]

You're paraphrasing my post for unclear reasons and - if I do say so myself - somewhat poorly. - I did not say 'pour stability into your tank every day' or 'the more the better or 'I promise everything will be just fine'. What I actually said was:
"MnFish1 said: Stability is a cycling bacteria product. It's used when cycling a new tank OR - adding new bio load to a relatively immature tank. It's pretty simple here."

Stability is not designed as a daily 365 days/year product, nor did I say it was. Additionally, any product - if over-used can cause problems. So my comment was based on the assumption that the OP followed the instructions on the bottle (Which is why I posted a link to the instructions below my post). Additionally - I do not think that stability is what caused 'everything to die' in the OP's tank - if it was used correctly - and unless we hear different - I assume thats the case.

EDIT - here is a quote from the directions:

"Directions
Shake well before use. Turn off UV/ozone. Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 40 L (10 US gallons) on the first day with a new aquarium. Then use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 US gallons) daily for 7 days. Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days. For optimum biofilter performance use 1 capful for each 80 L (20 US gallons) once a month or with each water change and whenever introducing new fish or whenever medicating an aquarium. Product shelf life is 4 years from date of manufacture."

As mentioned by many above .
I don’t believe it was the direct addition of stability that caused the deaths . But i do believe it was the over population of bacteria that might have suffocated the weaker immune fish .
this which would cause the ammonia spike which in turn the system is too new to process the excessive ammonia .

but …. As I also mentioned . This post is a little short of facts or Pictures .
I believe the lfs sold this product with no knowledge of the system and just pushing a sale
While dosing anything blindly is not a wise choice . Adding too much of a good thing is misinformed .
I was advised by a lfs awhile ago to dose microbacter7 to lower nutrient levels .

@MnFish1 i believer you have done a experiment along the same lines whether dosing nitrifying bacteria to a cycled tank is beneficial

 

[MnFish1]

As mentioned by many above .
I don’t believe it was the direct addition of stability that caused the deaths . But i do believe it was the over population of bacteria that might have suffocated the weaker immune fish .
this which would cause the ammonia spike which in turn the system is too new to process the excessive ammonia .

but …. As I also mentioned . This post is a little short of facts or Pictures .
I believe the lfs sold this product with no knowledge of the system and just pushing a sale
While dosing anything blindly is not a wise choice . Adding too much of a good thing is misinformed .
I was advised by a lfs awhile ago to dose microbacter7 to lower nutrient levels .

@MnFish1 i believer you have done a experiment along the same lines whether dosing nitrifying bacteria to a cycled tank is beneficial

I agree with you - that there is just not enough information to make a formal diagnosis.

One of the reasons I posted the link to the Stability instructions is this (in the FAQ section):
"Can Stability™ be overdosed? A: It is very hard to overdose Stability. You can really never have too much beneficial bacteria. The worst thing that could happen is a bacterial bloom in the water column, but this is rare and will clear on its own, should it occur."

As I think I said in my first post - IF stability had been overdosed - there would have been a bacterial bloom/cloudy water. As to the comment from Sachem above - I disagree with their statement 'you can really never have too much beneficial bacteria - because if you do - you can create a (sometimes) dangerous bacterial bloom.

I have not done a specific experiment - BUT - it's my strong opinion that there is not likely be be a benefit by merely adding bacteria to an established tank. In this case - bacteria was added when an increased bioload was added. This is according to the instructions on the label - and the LFS was IMHO - not giving 'false' information based on the limited information from the OP.

 

[laverda]

My question is what were the other tank parameters at the time and now? Alk, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate? Something is clearly still wrong, as the urchin is continuing to lose spines.
What was the source water? Are chlorimines or chlorine present? Other toxins from tap water, copper, lead, arsnic are all posibilities if tap water was used. Although I would expect the snails to have died as well.

 

[Indiana Jones]

I did not test Alk, nitrite, nitrate, or phosphate. Source water is tap through AquaticLife RODI and tested with 0 TDS. I am 100% sure my tank would still be going had I not added the CUC and Stability last week.

maybe I misread the directions on the bottle. I added 1 capful for each 10 gallons on the first day. Which would be 5 caps. Followed by 1 capful for each 20 gallons for the next 7 days. Which was 3 caps a day. The LFS did recommend following the directions for first 7 days. Ultimately, it is my fault. But, my tank was not a “new” tank. It had already gone though the original cycle with Dr Tim’s and was 3.5 months old.
I am going to contact Seachem tomorrow and let them know about my experience.

 

[MnFish1]

I did not test Alk, nitrite, nitrate, or phosphate. Source water is tap through AquaticLife RODI and tested with 0 TDS. I am 100% sure my tank would still be going had I not added the CUC and Stability last week.

maybe I misread the directions on the bottle. I added 1 capful for each 10 gallons on the first day. Which would be 5 caps. Followed by 1 capful for each 20 gallons for the next 7 days. Which was 3 caps a day. The LFS did recommend following the directions for first 7 days. Ultimately, it is my fault. But, my tank was not a “new” tank. It had already gone though the original cycle with Dr Tim’s and was 3.5 months old.
I am going to contact Seachem tomorrow and let them know about my experience.

My experience with this product - is that this would not have caused a problem - HOWEVER - I'm going to change my comments slightly - a CUC does not seem like something that should have been added to a tank cycled with Dr. Tims. It was my impression that you started your cycle with stability. Having said that - Stability contains a very small amount of bacterial spores - and without a high nutrient situation would not have caused a problem. You would also have seen a cloudy tank water - that would have alerted you to a problem. I agree with contacting Seachem - their tech support is excellent - please update us on what you find out. And sorry for your fish!

 

[Indiana Jones]

I called Seachem and in summary they think my tank crashed due to an ammonia spike which was caused by the increase in bioload.

I added 12 snails/hermits and 1 urchin. They believe I added too much bioload at once, and since I do not regularly test ammonia levels, it is possible my ammonia spiked significantly. The 0.2 ammonia I had seen on Saturday would have been the tail end of the spike. Seachem recommended me to add Prime when introducing new fish to help stabilize the new bioload. They also looked up the lot# on my bottle of Stability and said their has been no recorded issues with the batch.

I really did not think adding this CUC of small snails would spike my system that much, but lesson learned.

 

[brandon429]

I called Seachem and in summary they think my tank crashed due to an ammonia spike which was caused by the increase in bioload.


that is 100% false and shows that seachem is staffed by regular folks. there are no display reef tanks running such insufficient surface area that adding bioload crashes them, doesn't occur in reefing. your nano did not have an amazing huge bioload, it had the bioload nanos carry.

it is NOT true that adding animals means we have to give time for bacteria to ramp up on rocks, to match the new bioload, that's patently false and does not occur and has been a forum misnomer for 20 years + so it's no surprise seachem would go there. When a tank is cycled, it can carry it's max bioload relative to surface area present, it doesnt develop a stronger bioload carry over time. the only way to make a reef tank carry more bioload is to add more rock/surface area

its not about waiting for bacteria to multiply, your tank isn't low on surface area, no reef or nano is.

 

[brandon429]

check out the stickies in the disease forum regarding fish disease preps.


how was your tank built and stocked, compared to those advices


also read Jay article: Biosecurity

from that article, how can adding a CUC from a pet store kill all your fish?

 

[Indiana Jones]

Another theory I heard is that the nassarius snails disturbing the sand could have been a possible cause.

 

[tnw50cal]

Imagine
After cycling the bacteria that’s there is capable of processing the ammonia produced by the livestock you have .
What ever bacteria is not used will starve and die and it will maintain its balance .

Then how do the bacteria in a bottle stay alive sometimes for months/year on the stores shelves?

 

[tnw50cal]

I called Seachem and in summary they think my tank crashed due to an ammonia spike which was caused by the increase in bioload.


that is 100% false and shows that seachem is staffed by regular folks. there are no display reef tanks running such insufficient surface area that adding bioload crashes them, doesn't occur in reefing. your nano did not have an amazing huge bioload, it had the bioload nanos carry.

it is NOT true that adding animals means we have to give time for bacteria to ramp up on rocks, to match the new bioload, that's patently false and does not occur and has been a forum misnomer for 20 years + so it's no surprise seachem would go there. When a tank is cycled, it can carry it's max bioload relative to surface area present, it doesnt develop a stronger bioload carry over time. the only way to make a reef tank carry more bioload is to add more rock/surface area

its not about waiting for bacteria to multiply, your tank isn't low on surface area, no reef or nano is.

This

 

[Rmckoy]

Then how do the bacteria in a bottle stay alive sometimes for months/year on the stores shelves?

Where do bacterial blooms that wipe out entire tanks come from ?

great question , is there some sort of balanced bacteria per bottle , is it the combination of all bacteria that cause issues ?

 

[reef_1]

since I do not regularly test ammonia levels

I dont know what the problem was in this case with your tank and you might never actually find out, but I think for all new tanks one of the best purchase you can make is an ammonia badge.

It is cheap and gives plenty of warning if there is a bioload problem or if something dies for example and you can then take action before it kills the tank.

There are also other interesting stuff you can learn with the badge, like free ammonia vs total ammonia, how ph fluctuations affect free ammonia or whether disturbing detritus can generate ammonia etc

I personally feel I learned a lot by watching this single 10$ item.