TBS Live Rock and Sand Disease Risk

Jay Hemdal

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@Jay Hemdal

Live rock and and sand from the ocean easily vectors in disease. Would you add unfallowed live rock from any source into zoo systems you're responsible for? Your home system?


biosecurity applies to materials transfer among reef tanks


From oceanic sources it's even more likely to have animals that are direct vectors, = snails etc / see Jay's biosecurity article

Cured live rock, wet surfaces, can introduce tomonts across systems even if it doesn't have snails with fish diseases directly in the gut

When people remove all their fish to fallow a system, why do they do that if live rock/ sand / surfaces aren't a harbor? Simply removing fish would instantly starve the parasites if surfaces afforded no hiding and insulation places. It takes 45-90 days, so what happens if we move that live rock into someone else's tank on day 2
I hold all new live rock in a fishless system for 30 to 60 days. I might not do that though for live rock that was shipped damp and then “bucket cured”, but I don’t use that technique any longer.

Live rock from a LFS system that also holds fish should for SURE be isolated from fish for at least 30 days, but 60 is safer.

The story I always tell is of the LFS that would “treat” their sick fish by moving them into their invert systems (with better water quality). Of course, all the inverts they sold out of there had the potential to carry pathogens to their customer’s tanks..
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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excellent, understood. disease control is so tedious and risky and impactful to us. freshwater folks seem spoiled in comparison, unless they own scats of course.
 

jabberwock

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have had them before and removed, never tried to “domesticate” them. Is that possible, considering I have small fish and only a 20 gallon? When I had a large tank, 300 g, had a crab grow huge that I couldn’t remove. He ended up taking down a Blue Throat Trigger.
I mean you can keep them, but they will eat your fish...

Domesticate, no. Incarcerate, yes.
 

Tamberav

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I bought two fish from KP and put them in an observation tank. They started showing ich after a few weeks which 100 percent came on them since it was a sterile tank prior. No fault of KPA, the fish come from the ocean after all and that is why they were in obs instead of my DT.

If fish can have ich in those waters, it stands to reason that yes, it can come in on rock. I have no idea the chance/occurrence.
 

Subsea

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I bought two fish from KP and put them in an observation tank. They started showing ich after a few weeks which 100 percent came on them since it was a sterile tank prior. No fault of KPA, the fish come from the ocean after all and that is why they were in obs instead of my DT.

If fish can have ich in those waters, it stands to reason that yes, it can come in on rock. I have no idea the chance/occurrence.
I assume those fish recovered.

Kind of makes one wonder that all wild fish have dormant ich until stress event triggers a visual response.

PS: while I have not seen ich in fish on a wild reef, it could be that if ich gains the upper hand over the immune system then the weakened fish is eaten by a predator instead of by a parasite.
 
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Tamberav

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I assume those fish recovered.

Kind of makes one wonder that all wild fish have dormant ich until stress event triggers a visual response.

PS: while I have not seen ich in fish on a wild reef, it could be that if ich gains the upper hand over the immune system then the weakened fish is eaten by a predator instead of by a parasite.

One died from a completely unrelated injury but the other one recovered after copper.

The fish looked absolutely perfect for weeks before ich showed so clearly it was in the gills or such at low levels but the stress of shipping and probably the fact it was in a 20g of water and not millions like the ocean meant the ich could multiply and reinfect the same fish therefore actually making it become bad enough to be visible.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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what I find so fascinating is how the ocean is potentiated for it but they express it so much less there/am assuming

they must hate coming to us for holding?
 

56longroof

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I used TBS sand and live rock from KP Aquatics. I don't quarantine or dip anything. Never had a issue whatsoever. If you need to go fallow for peace of mind that's up to you but I seriously doubt it would make a difference.
 

WhatCouldGoWrong71

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This is my 3rd time using wet gulf rock, second with the great ladies from @LiverockRocks. I would NEVER do this any other way. Below is my recent build. I consolidate 2 tanks and added an additional 150-200 pounds of TBS rock and I don’t recall how many hundreds of pounds of their sand. This is about hit the ground running as you can get. This tank has had water in it for about 60 days. I have been pounding the crap out of this system with intense PAR, 95x display turnover and feed the crap out of it. I really like the sand, but I have put reborn in a few areas that my flow was causing massive dunes and stuff. I’ve only used the UV when I have introduced new fish for the first day or two. The freaking biodiversity is something I can’t even begins to explain. There are 10Ks of thousands of filter feeding things living on these rocks. Hundreds of these clam like things that filter also. There is a difference between disease and pest. I’ll take the fight on against the pest battle any day of the week for this type of biodiversity. As far as disease? I’m going to be doing that DNA and biome test. I highly doubt the rock gave me the clap or anything. I’m curious what all those one night stands in my old tank brought to this tank (dump and prey.. what were you thinking?). Never never never should a human build a reef tank without the assistance from the ladies at TBS.

 

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Fish Fan

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As far as disease? I’m going to be doing that DNA and biome test. I highly doubt the rock gave me the clap or anything.
I not going to ask questions, I don't judge, I'm just going to remind you that it's important to get tested :)

I'm sorry, I'll show myself out now.......
 

Skywater

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I am currently setting up a new tank and am curious what everyone's thoughts are on disease risk with TBS Live Rock and Sand (inch, velvet..)

I am trying to be a little more serious about fish quarantine this go around, though I have never had a problem in the past, and am wondering what the chances are of introducing fish disease from the start. If I am going through the effort of quarantining each fish as they come in, should I run the tank fallow for a period of time?
I had a follow up thought I just want to share here. Again, how strict you want to be when QT'ing new livestock is a personal choice for sure. But many here at R2R like to QT everything "wet", so fish of course, but also inverts like snails, crabs, shrimp, etc. If it's possible that something like a snail could have ich on or inside it, would it not be possible that a snail that came on the TBS rocks could bring in parasites?

Again, I freely admit that the likelihood of getting a disease causing organism this way is very low, but to me a two month fallow when you first get your rock is insurance. Use that time to trap and remove and unwanted hitchhikers, and QT your fish in another tank.
TBS prducts have always been healthy additions to my tanks...going way back to about the year 1990. The only fish they sell are Tiger gobies. They sell them out right away. No chance for fish to stay in dealer tanks and such. I've purchased from Tampa Bay Saltwater many times. Very fresh livesand, liverock and livestock. Fresh from the ocean means hitchhikers. I will take the good with the occasional hitchhikers that I relocate like a florida mantis shrimp. I never truly quarantine from Tampa Bay, just select the hitchhikers I want to keep. Two filter feeding porcelain crabs from Tama Bay Saltwater arrived with Liverock and are some of my favorite creatures living in my 75g.
 

LiverockRocks

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Howdy, better late than never to the conversation. @jabberwock @WhatCouldGoWrong71 @Fish Fan @steveschuerger @logibear @dangles @TangerineSpeedo and everyone else.

It's a long story, so get comfy.

Our main objective is to offer a healthy product that benefits aquarium inhabitants and the aquarium environment as a whole, ensuring happy customers in the end. The last thing we want to do is spread disease.

Soon after our first rock harvest, as the new TBS. The topic arose between us of ocean live rock as carriers of fish disease. (One of our team members had firsthand experience of their fish getting ich/velvet from ocean harvested rock, and I am not saying who, but it wasn't TBS. Another team member had worked in a LFS and observed diseased fish added to tanks with healthy fish, inverts and live rock.)

From the beginning, we decided not to contaminate the live rock and sand holding system by introducing anything acquired from external sources. The TBS holding system is and always has been 100% TBS farmed products.

On occasion, inventory of cleanup crew critters run low, and we do purchase extras from trusted Florida divers. However, very important, is any cleanup crew that didn't come in as a TBS hitchhiker is kept in a completely separate system away from the live rock system. While we trust our sources for extra critters, we will absolutely not risk contamination of the live rock system.

In the brand-new-as-of-yesterday TBS website, you will notice some critters are designated -TBS farm. This means you can purchase a hermit crab that came in on TBS Live Rock from our farm or a hermit crab purchased from a trusted diver. The customer decides. Trusted diver critters are kept in a completely separate system. TBS farm critters are kept in a critter system plumbed into the rock system. If you haven't already noticed from our in-depth website, we are passionate about the hobby and the success of our customers, transparency is important.

So, back on topic. We chatted with the founder of TBS regarding his 30+ year experience with customers getting disease from his live rock/sand. @liverock told us he has never had a customer report fish disease coming from TBS Live Rock and he never experienced it in the holding system. This was great to learn.

After reading AquaBiomics early article on live rock and his testing procedures, we decided to send in a sample to learn for ourselves if the holding system carried pathogens. Of course, we were anxious because we absolutely care about this topic. The results came back as 0 fish/coral pathogens. (We have had the system tested multiple times with the same results.)

So why is this? Yes, we don't contaminate with outside products but it's the ocean and there are diseases out there! Well....a unique aspect of the TBS farm its location. Farm temps drop into the high 40Fs late winter and rise to the highest 80Fs in late summer. This is a HUGE temp swing for prolonged periods. What is one of the discussed methods for ridding a tank of disease? High temp. Our thought is that the majority of fish pathogens struggle to survive or prolificate in a 40+ degree annual temp swing. Disclaimer: We are obviously not scientists, but it seems to make sense.

A few other tidbits of info: J sees a lot of fish. When a rock is picked off the ocean bottom a plethora of creatures are disturbed (crabs, worms, starfish, tiny fish, shrimps) these small critters are scrambling for cover, so as each rock is inspected by J larger fish are zooming in to grab a tasty morsel. Fish are all over the place and J has not spied an obviously sick fish. Btw, uronema magnets -chromis- do not live on the farm. Another btw, stony coral disease has not been documented as far north as we are, nor has J seen diseases affecting the few sps on the farm. And another btw, the very few fish in the live rock holding system are hikers like tiger gobies, a random tiny wrasse, baby blenny or juvenile toad fish.

After learning about @liverock 30+ yr experience of no disease, J not seeing disease, combined with AquaBiomics tests, the commonsense protocol of protecting the system from contamination, plus knowledge of the annual 40-degree temp swing; we feel confident that TBS is on the right track of providing healthy live rock to our customers.

If a customer wants to be extra vigilant, go fallow 3 months. The tank will still be lovely.

Rock on.
TBS
 
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dangles

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Howdy, better late than never to the conversation. @jabberwock @WhatCouldGoWrong71 @Fish Fan @steveschuerger @logibear @dangles @TangerineSpeedo and everyone else.

It's a long story, so get comfy.

Our main objective is to offer a healthy product that benefits aquarium inhabitants and the aquarium environment as a whole, ensuring happy customers in the end. The last thing we want to do is spread disease.

Soon after our first rock harvest, as the new TBS. The topic arose between us of ocean live rock as carriers of fish disease. (One of our team members had firsthand experience of their fish getting ich/velvet from ocean harvested rock, and I am not saying who, but it wasn't TBS. Another team member had worked in a LFS and observed diseased fish added to tanks with healthy fish, inverts and live rock.)

From the beginning, we decided not to contaminate the live rock and sand holding system by introducing anything acquired from external sources. The TBS holding system is and always has been 100% TBS farmed products.

On occasion, inventory of cleanup crew critters run low, and we do purchase extras from trusted Florida divers. However, very important, is any cleanup crew that didn't come in as a TBS hitchhiker is kept in a completely separate system away from the live rock system. While we trust our sources for extra critters, we will absolutely not risk contamination of the live rock system.

In the brand-new-as-of-yesterday TBS website, you will notice some critters are designated -TBS farm. This means you can purchase a hermit crab that came in on TBS Live Rock from our farm or a hermit crab purchased from a trusted diver. The customer decides. Trusted diver critters are kept in a completely separate system. TBS farm critters are kept in a critter system plumbed into the rock system. If you haven't already noticed from our in-depth website, we are passionate about the hobby and the success of our customers, transparency is important.

So, back on topic. We chatted with the founder of TBS regarding his 30+ year experience with customers getting disease from his live rock/sand. @liverock told us he has never had a customer report fish disease coming from TBS Live Rock and he never experienced it in the holding system. This was great to learn.

After reading AquaBiomics early article on live rock and his testing procedures, we decided to send in a sample to learn for ourselves if the holding system carried pathogens. Of course, we were anxious because we absolutely care about this topic. The results came back as 0 fish/coral pathogens. (We have had the system tested multiple times with the same results.)

So why is this? Yes, we don't contaminate with outside products but it's the ocean and there are diseases out there! Well....a unique aspect of the TBS farm its location. Farm temps drop into the high 40Fs late winter and rise to the highest 80Fs in late summer. This is a HUGE temp swing for prolonged periods. What is one of the discussed methods for ridding a tank of disease? High temp. Our thought is that the majority of fish pathogens struggle to survive or prolificate in a 40+ degree annual temp swing. Disclaimer: We are obviously not scientists, but it seems to make sense.

A few other tidbits of info: J sees a lot of fish. When a rock is picked off the ocean bottom a plethora of creatures are disturbed (crabs, worms, starfish, tiny fish, shrimps) these small critters are scrambling for cover, so as each rock is inspected by J larger fish are zooming in to grab a tasty morsel. Fish are all over the place and J has not spied an obviously sick fish. Btw, uronema magnets -chromis- do not live on the farm. Another btw, stony coral disease has not been documented as far north as we are, nor has J seen diseases affecting the few sps on the farm. And another btw, the very few fish in the live rock holding system are hikers like tiger gobies, a random tiny wrasse, baby blenny or juvenile toad fish.

After learning about @liverock 30+ yr experience of no disease, J not seeing disease, combined with AquaBiomics tests, the commonsense protocol of protecting the system from contamination, plus knowledge of the annual 40-degree temp swing; we feel confident that TBS is on the right track of providing healthy live rock to our customers.

If a customer wants to be extra vigilant, go fallow 3 months. The tank will still be lovely.

Rock on.
TBS


This should be its own sticky post somewhere since this question is asked fairly regularly. Is this info on your site somewhere? If not it should be!

Thanks for all you guys do!
 

LiverockRocks

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This should be its own sticky post somewhere since this question is asked fairly regularly. Is this info on your site somewhere? If not it should be!

Thanks for all you guys do!
It is not on the site, but it should be.
Appreciate you.
 
OP
OP
Aaron Stone

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Howdy, better late than never to the conversation. @jabberwock @WhatCouldGoWrong71 @Fish Fan @steveschuerger @logibear @dangles @TangerineSpeedo and everyone else.

It's a long story, so get comfy.

Our main objective is to offer a healthy product that benefits aquarium inhabitants and the aquarium environment as a whole, ensuring happy customers in the end. The last thing we want to do is spread disease.

Soon after our first rock harvest, as the new TBS. The topic arose between us of ocean live rock as carriers of fish disease. (One of our team members had firsthand experience of their fish getting ich/velvet from ocean harvested rock, and I am not saying who, but it wasn't TBS. Another team member had worked in a LFS and observed diseased fish added to tanks with healthy fish, inverts and live rock.)

From the beginning, we decided not to contaminate the live rock and sand holding system by introducing anything acquired from external sources. The TBS holding system is and always has been 100% TBS farmed products.

On occasion, inventory of cleanup crew critters run low, and we do purchase extras from trusted Florida divers. However, very important, is any cleanup crew that didn't come in as a TBS hitchhiker is kept in a completely separate system away from the live rock system. While we trust our sources for extra critters, we will absolutely not risk contamination of the live rock system.

In the brand-new-as-of-yesterday TBS website, you will notice some critters are designated -TBS farm. This means you can purchase a hermit crab that came in on TBS Live Rock from our farm or a hermit crab purchased from a trusted diver. The customer decides. Trusted diver critters are kept in a completely separate system. TBS farm critters are kept in a critter system plumbed into the rock system. If you haven't already noticed from our in-depth website, we are passionate about the hobby and the success of our customers, transparency is important.

So, back on topic. We chatted with the founder of TBS regarding his 30+ year experience with customers getting disease from his live rock/sand. @liverock told us he has never had a customer report fish disease coming from TBS Live Rock and he never experienced it in the holding system. This was great to learn.

After reading AquaBiomics early article on live rock and his testing procedures, we decided to send in a sample to learn for ourselves if the holding system carried pathogens. Of course, we were anxious because we absolutely care about this topic. The results came back as 0 fish/coral pathogens. (We have had the system tested multiple times with the same results.)

So why is this? Yes, we don't contaminate with outside products but it's the ocean and there are diseases out there! Well....a unique aspect of the TBS farm its location. Farm temps drop into the high 40Fs late winter and rise to the highest 80Fs in late summer. This is a HUGE temp swing for prolonged periods. What is one of the discussed methods for ridding a tank of disease? High temp. Our thought is that the majority of fish pathogens struggle to survive or prolificate in a 40+ degree annual temp swing. Disclaimer: We are obviously not scientists, but it seems to make sense.

A few other tidbits of info: J sees a lot of fish. When a rock is picked off the ocean bottom a plethora of creatures are disturbed (crabs, worms, starfish, tiny fish, shrimps) these small critters are scrambling for cover, so as each rock is inspected by J larger fish are zooming in to grab a tasty morsel. Fish are all over the place and J has not spied an obviously sick fish. Btw, uronema magnets -chromis- do not live on the farm. Another btw, stony coral disease has not been documented as far north as we are, nor has J seen diseases affecting the few sps on the farm. And another btw, the very few fish in the live rock holding system are hikers like tiger gobies, a random tiny wrasse, baby blenny or juvenile toad fish.

After learning about @liverock 30+ yr experience of no disease, J not seeing disease, combined with AquaBiomics tests, the commonsense protocol of protecting the system from contamination, plus knowledge of the annual 40-degree temp swing; we feel confident that TBS is on the right track of providing healthy live rock to our customers.

If a customer wants to be extra vigilant, go fallow 3 months. The tank will still be lovely.

Rock on.
TBS
Thanks for chiming in. I figured that the risk was probably exceedingly low. I have always used live rock from various sources and it has never been a problem. My interest in fish is minimal to so the least, corals hold my interest, but my kids are in love with the fish so I am going to probably be splurging more on fish than I have in the past so I was curious.

I appreciate your time in responding. Thank you.
 

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I am currently setting up a new tank and am curious what everyone's thoughts are on disease risk with TBS Live Rock and Sand (inch, velvet..)

I am trying to be a little more serious about fish quarantine this go around, though I have never had a problem in the past, and am wondering what the chances are of introducing fish disease from the start. If I am going through the effort of quarantining each fish as they come in, should I run the tank fallow for a period of time?
No, there is no reasonable concern here. You’ll have some things you’ll find in the coming months and need to deal with for sure. Ich or velvet would be a unicorn. Plus you won’t have fish for bit. Non-issue I’d say.
 

Tamberav

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what I find so fascinating is how the ocean is potentiated for it but they express it so much less there/am assuming

they must hate coming to us for holding?

Stress but also there’s also dilution, the ocean is an enormous volume. The disease multiplies but does not infect the same fish over and over until breaking point.

It is on the best interest of the parasite to keep the hosts alive.
 

GARRIGA

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I'm not seeking eradication of all pathogens and big believer in immunity through exposure yet will likely go FOLLOW with any inverts or rocks or sand acquired regardless of source if for no other reason then to lower the pathogen load or just play it safe. Each needs to decide for self how much risk (if any) they are willing to assume.
 

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