TBS Live Rock and Sand Disease Risk

Subsea

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Did they add the rock to an existing tank? If so, did they have a "clean" test prior to that? If a new tank, did they transfer fish/corals into the tank along with the live rock? Maybe not, but all are relevant questions worth asking.

I think it's becoming more and more clear that ich (and many of the other "big nasties") exist in tanks that don't exhibit any symptoms. Many more tanks than most people realize most likely. I'd be curious if 100 random people tested their tanks, how many would pop positive on one or more parasites/diseases without symptoms.

To the OP... I've only been in the hobby for a little over 2 years so my experience is obviously limited. Take my opinions as just that... opinions. But in that short time I've already evolved from "QT ALL THE THINGS!!!" to "buy from trusted sources, try to keep everybody healthy, well-fed and minimize stress.... and try not to stress yourself too much." Take reasonable precautions for sure. I will only buy pre-QTd fish from now on because I DO have a verified clean tank. But beyond that, I don't stress too much about it. I won't hesitate to add live rock/sand in the future. But I get it too. It's easy to get overwhelmed with info and anecdotal opinions on the forums :)
As I read this post, I say kudos to dangles as he figured out in 2 years what took me 50 years.

If healthy fish in the wild are host of dormant ich, indicating that the fish immune system holds pathogen in check and/or environmental conditions are holding dormant cyst in check, it seems logical then that maricultured fish in sanitized mariculture facilities have fragile immunity to pathogen invasion.
 

Subsea

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I bought two fish from KP and put them in an observation tank. They started showing ich after a few weeks which 100 percent came on them since it was a sterile tank prior. No fault of KPA, the fish come from the ocean after all and that is why they were in obs instead of my DT.

If fish can have ich in those waters, it stands to reason that yes, it can come in on rock. I have no idea the chance/occurrence.
When Sahara dust storms contribute to phytoplankton blooms 1000 miles away in mid Atlantic, via air currents,
I say “it’s difficult to quarantine”.

Tamberav,
If healthy wildcaught fish carried ich into your sanitized system, “Houston, we have a problem”.
 
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Tamberav

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When Sahara dust storms contribute to phytoplankton blooms 1000 miles away in mid Atlantic, via air currents,
I say “it’s difficult to quarantine”.

Tamberav,
If healthy wildcaught fish carried ich into your sanitized system, “Houston we have a problem”.

Well they absolutely did. Net caught and direct from the diver. Arrived in good health otherwise. I am not sure of the problem though? It’s sort of expected for this to occur?
 

Subsea

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Well they absolutely did. Net caught and direct from the diver. Arrived in good health otherwise. I am not sure of the problem though? It’s sort of expected for this to occur?
Lets eliminate the possibility of any cross contamination from your system and let’s assume the wild caught fish did not have ich in the wild, then during holding & transportation the pathogen was introduced.

I think the third likelihood is the most probable. You did say there was a three week period before visual symptoms. Aside from spots, did you see flashing behavior?

What are your thoughts?
 

Tamberav

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Lets eliminate the possibility of any cross contamination from your system and let’s assume the wild caught fish did not have ich in the wild, then during holding & transportation the pathogen was introduced.

I think the third likelihood is the most probable. You did say there was a three week period before visual symptoms. Aside from spots, did you see flashing behavior?

What are your thoughts?

No flashing or symptoms.

My thoughts is the fish came in with a low infection of ich in the gills and when put in a confined glass box, the ich was able to complete its cycle producing more ich which reinfected the same fish. There is no escape in a glass box.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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it seems logical then that maricultured fish in sanitized mariculture facilities have fragile immunity to pathogen invasion.

is there any evidence of them being more susceptible to disease later in home aquaria?
 

Subsea

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is there any evidence of them being more susceptible to disease later in home aquaria?
I don’t have evidence on wild fish. Some members here are experts in this area. Let them speak up.

In the case of humans that are isolated from pathogens, we know that their immune systems are compromised by foreign pathogens with too many pandemics to count.

I don’t see why it would be different in fish.
 
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Subsea

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No flashing or symptoms.

My thoughts is the fish came in with a low infection of ich in the gills and when put in a confined glass box, the ich was able to complete its cycle producing more ich which reinfected the same fish. There is no escape in a glass box.
Let’s agree that the fish was infected with ich, when you got it. Did ich come from the wild or during handling & transportation is the next question?

Considering that you didn’t see symptons for 21 days, ich could have been contacted after it was netted in the wild?

Tamberav,
You did not convince me that ich was carried in from the ocean. Yes, it could have happened that way.
 

Fish Fan

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This is a great read, thanks everyone for your input and thoughts here! Just a few thoughts of my own here:

I'm just going to say that I disagree with the philosophy that we have a tiny, complete piece of the ocean in our homes. I believe that we have a glass box full of saltwater and in it lives only what we put in it, and is capable of surviving. Call me wide-eye, but we just don't know all of the ocean's processes yet, and I don't believe we could possibly recreate them in our home aquaria. A home aquarium is a captive, closed environment. That's just my philosophy, I know others feel differently :)

Again just personally, I believe that nearly every single fish in the wild has parasites on them. I believe where there's fish, there's fish parasites, that just makes sense to me. In the wild, in a perfect environment, *healthy* fish can stave off these attacks, and keep symptoms at bay easily. But that doesn't mean they are not infected, and could in fact become symptomatic perhaps because of old age, stress, comorbidity, etc. I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the ocean a fish has indeed succumb to a parasite infection ;-)

With all that in mind, I'm with @Tamberav here in that in a small box of water, the fish are sitting ducks. Once present in the system, the parasites can multiply in a numbers that can overcome fish, especially if conditions are anything less than perfect, and the fish is stressed in the least. The fish have no haven to escape, they are constantly infected and reinfected. Again, just my belief here.

I know @Subsea and reefer's like Dan_P prefer an arguably more natural route of maintaining high quality water, maintaining fish health and immunity with a high quality diet, and I certainly can't deny their success :)

But I pay very close attention to the threads here on fish diseases, and if you haven't noticed, I think at least 1-3 times each day we get someone posting, "Help! Everything was fine for months, woke up today and all my fish have spots!". I mean, I see this post over and over on here. <<Maybe I should stop watching horror movies if I'm having nightmares lol??

I don't know if I or even most reefers have the skills, equipment or experience to provide a pristine habitat and a complete, natural diet to all our animals like some of you can. And for those that can, awesome!

I certainly strive to keep the best environment and care for my livestock as best as I know how to, but all of this is why I would prefer to try to keep parasites at bay proactively, rather than rely on nature to do it for me.

Again, just my $0.02 here. Thanks again everyone, this is a really interesting thread!
 

Tamberav

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Let’s agree that the fish was infected with ich, when you got it. Did ich come from the wild or during handling & transportation is the next question?

Considering that you didn’t see symptons for 21 days, ich could have been contacted after it was netted in the wild?

Tamberav,
You did not convince me that ich was carried in from the ocean. Yes, it could have happened that way.

Well it came from the wild or it came from the holding tank which I assume also holds wild fish from the same supplier. The fish is not mixed with other fish around the world. It is KPA so it’s only the Caribbean fish they collect there in small numbers.

It did not go through a wholesaler.

If you are saying ich can’t infect fish in the wild, then ich would go extinct.
 

Tamberav

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I don’t have evidence on wild fish. Some members here are experts in this area. Let them speak up.

In the case of humans that are isolated from pathogens, we know that their immune systems are compromised by foreign pathogens with too many pandemics to count.

I don’t see why it would be different in fish.

As someone who mixes wild and captive fish.

The captive didn’t show problems anymore then the wilds. They were never the first to show or get the sickest.

The ones to get sick first were just those with thinner slime coats or some sort of predisposition to disease.

Instead it was more to do with slime coat, and overall health (like stressors, example, a fish that is bullied). Obviously a healthy fish that is fed appropriately probably has a healthier slime coat than an identical fish fed poorly.

We are not talking about viruses or bacterial infections here. We are talking about much larger parasites.
 
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GARRIGA

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Have read where ich in the ocean like the common cold in that there are multiple strains and fish from one ocean not likely immune to that from another ocean although might be immune to that in it's surroundings. Based on what I know in general about immunity. Fish placed together from different oceans can become immune to foreign strains but the main concern being constant contact and in numbers greater than the fish's immune system can learn to fight off. How accurate that is unknown.

Why my philosophy being rather simplistic. Maintain low numbers of said pathogen although still working on exactly how to perform in display but pretty sure can be handled in observation of newly acquired. As a backup. Keep fish healthy and well fed (as like @Paul B) with less stress although at home threat of getting eaten relatively less therefore you'd think back in the real world they'd be constantly confronted with stress. Seems best then reduce environmental stress such as large temperature, ph or alkalinity swings (latter I think only pertains to inverts). Control what you can and hope one's husbandry good enough for the occasional neglect because I'm human and mistakes will happen.
 

Fish Fan

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Control what you can and hope one's husbandry good enough for the occasional neglect because I'm human and mistakes will happen.
^This is exactly what I try to do.
 

Subsea

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Most of us will agree that the primary fish protection against parasite invasion is slime coat. Than a healthy immune system. While stress is difficult to quantify, it affects immune system dramatically. When @Paul B first said that he looked to get ich infected fish so he could prove his fishes immunity to infection from this parasite by adding to his mature tank, that’s on him.

While I did not hunt for ich infested fish, in 55years of Reefing, I have had fish from two separate livestock vendors that showed ich when they arrived in bags. One was a shipment of tank raised clown fish from CQuest hatchery and one shipment was 10 hippo tangs from Divers Den at LiveAquaria.

PS: with respect to eradication of ich in my closed system, I don’t stress on it. First, I don’t operate heavy fish loads. Considering the diversity of sponge feeding habits, I consider my systems to have the diversity necessary to maintain parasite, virus, fungi & bacteria populations. I haven’t seen ich in my systems (includes 15 marine tanks) in 15 years.

PSS: I also suspect that free swimming ich are food for individuals in the microbial food chain. AND contrary to running a clean sanitized tank, I add live rock straight from the ocean into tanks, so I do sustain diversity from the ocean in captive reef tank. It’s less work than quarantine protocols.


image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg image.jpg
 
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Subsea

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I have prior knowledge of biofilm on seaweeds that have bio active properties that use gene expression to change environmental responses.

So let’s Google “How does slime coat in marine fish protect against pathogens and “PARK HERE”.

“A fish's slime coat protects them from pathogens by acting as a physical barrier that traps harmful bacteria, fungi, and viruses in the environment before they can penetrate the fish's skin, and by containing antimicrobial peptides and other compounds within the mucus that actively kill pathogens”

Key points about fish slime coat protection:
  • Physical barrier:
    The slimy mucus layer physically traps microbes as the fish moves through the water, preventing them from direct contact with the skin.

  • Antimicrobial compounds:
    The slime contains various antimicrobial peptides, lysozymes, and other proteins that actively kill bacteria and other pathogens.

  • Constant shedding:
    The outer layer of the slime coat is regularly shed, taking trapped pathogens with it.

  • Immune response support:
    The slime coat can also play a role in initiating an immune response by signaling the presence of pathogens.

Fish slime: An answer to antibiotic resistance?As antibiotic resistance continues to make headlines, researchers are ramping up their search for ways to turn the tide. A recent study focuses on fish slime.​

 

Amphibious Wallet

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It just seems far fetched to me to be a significant risk. I personally would not wait to add fish for that reason.
I may have heard Remy @ Reefbuilders on one of their casts go over his aquabiomics result where Uronema Marinum was detected. I want to say it was before he added livestock, or before he added fish.
Salem Clemens and Raj both immediately suspected the live substrate.

I'll try find it and update/strike this comment.
 

Subsea

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Dan Sanchez, diver owner of Gulf Live Rock has sent his live sand to Aquabonics and got “all clear” certified.
 

Subsea

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Why fish slime?​

This gloopy coating is of great use to fish because it traps and destroys pathogens in the environment, such as bacteria, fungi, and viruses. The slime contains novel polysaccharides and peptides, some of which have antibacterial activity.
One of the researchers, Molly Austin, explains that fish mucus is particularly interesting because fish are in constant contact with a complex environment that is dense with potential microbial enemies.
As the authors write, “fish cohabitate with a multitude of bacteria and viruses but often resist deadly infections.” It is worth finding out whether fish’s protective mechanisms might also protect humans.
The marine environment remains relatively unstudied, according to the principal investigator Sandra Loesgen, Ph.D., “For us, any microbe in the marine environment that could provide a new compound is worth exploring.”
Erin (Misty) Paig-Tran, Ph.D., who is from California State University, supplied the scientists with fish mucus from both bottom-dwelling and surface-dwelling fish off the coast of California.
The team chose to focus on younger fish because they tend to have thicker mucus layers. The extra mucus is necessary because their immune systems are relatively undeveloped, which means that they need additional protection.

Mucus​

 

Subsea

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Mucus versus MRSA​

In all, the researchers isolated 47 different strains of bacteria from the mucus. Of these, five were highly effective against methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), and three were effective against Candida albicans, a fungus that is pathogenic to humans.
The slime that was from the skin of Pacific pink perch worked particularly well against MRSA, and interestingly, it also showed strong activity against colon carcinoma cells.
For future studies, Austin has chosen to hone in on one specific species of bacteria that the team found on the Pacific pink perch — Pseudomonas aeruginosa. According to Austin, P. aeruginosa produces antibiotics that could be useful in the future.
For example, these bacteria produce interesting phenazines, which are a well-studiedTrusted Source group of compounds that have “broad-spectrum antibiotic properties.” Several bacterial species produce phenazines.
Aside from the pressing issue of antibiotic resistance, the scientists have other ideas about potential uses for fish slime. For instance, they think that fish mucus could help reduce the number of antibiotics that fish farms use. They believe that it would be possible to achieve this by designing antibiotics to target the microbes that are present in the mucus of specific fish.
 

GARRIGA

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Why I'd rather not use chemicals to process new fish as it might affect the fish's ability to fight that we are trying to eradicate. Either externally or internally. Not being a fish medic and less desire than being a chemist means I can't possibly know what side affects each treatment provides although just believe all medications tend to have some negative affect although I do get flu and COVID shots but only because I'd rather compromise my immune system temporarily yet can be rushed to the ER, if needed. This would not be the case with fish nor do I equate copper and other treatments to flu shots. Were there a vaccine for ich then I'd provide that and chance the temporary risks.

Fish evolved to fight off pathogens my understanding and even fish deprived of contact with pathogens likely build immunity assuming pathogen load is kept low and repeated contacts few and far enough apart for said fish to have built said immunity.

Were this not the case our oceans would be lifeless as it's very possible fish aren't born immune to all pathogens and mixing of fish from different locations means they are exposed to new pathogens not part of their evolution as far as locality. Learned that in the early 90s buying reptile direct from importers and being told not to keep them together as large quantities in proximity to each other could cause outbreaks the others weren't prepared to combat and likely unable to build resistance quick enough. Life adapts but not quick enough.
 

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