Test Method: Possibly Measuring a Polyquat Algaecide in Reef Tank Water (tracking Vibrant dose)

[MnFish1]

What is funny to Me - is that certain people seem to want to keep studying vibrant. It would make sense to me - that maybe they would verify their studies with a 'known'. i.e. algaefix is a known. No one cares about vibrant until/if/when they respond. We're talking about chemistry here - so - perhaps get a pure sample of Busan 77 - and use the proper dilutions or - use algaefix - with the proper dilutions etc?

 

[taricha]

The only thing that seems to decrease the amount of precipitate (Vibrant in solution) is a “biological” surface. Not clean glass nor clean aragonite sand. I am currently growing biofilms on glass microscope slides and exposing them to Vibrant. Will the slimy slides gradually suck up more and more Vibrant? Will it be proportional to surface area? Will Vibrant slow or stop biofilm formation?

interestingly we are getting a different picture than is painted elsewhere.
[wscp = busan 77, paper co-authored by buckman, the manufacturer]

paper (see attachment) is about binding of busan 77 to humic acids.

hmmm....I wonder if we are seeing the difference between fresh and saltwater? In freshwater, it just doesn't care and binds to negative surfaces pretty indiscriminately, and in saltwater the ions interfere and the polymer seems to bond more selectively with organics?

 

[Dan_P]

interestingly we are getting a different picture than is painted elsewhere.
[wscp = busan 77, paper co-authored by buckman, the manufacturer]

paper (see attachment) is about binding of busan 77 to humic acids.

hmmm....I wonder if we are seeing the difference between fresh and saltwater? In freshwater, it just doesn't care and binds to negative surfaces pretty indiscriminately, and in saltwater the ions interfere and the polymer seems to bond more selectively with organics?

HaHa, had the same thought yesterday. Are the properties of polyquats heavily weighted to studies in freshwater? I even entertained the idea of repeating my work in freshwater. Lab time isn’t so plentiful so maybe not, but might cherry pick some studies to repeat.

 

[taricha]

HaHa, had the same thought yesterday. Are the properties of polyquats heavily weighted to studies in freshwater? I even entertained the idea of repeating my work in freshwater. Lab time isn’t so plentiful so maybe not, but might cherry pick some studies to repeat.

yes. The environmental and other studies all conclude that based on the allowed usage, it will get bound and sorbed in freshwater and wastewater treatment and never make it to marine environments in appreciable amounts.
So marine data was considered mostly unnecessary and there's very little of it.

 

[wrassie86]

So, I believe you said that it was possible binding to other organics before reaching green algae, if that was the case then would it be better to spot treat any areas of concern with a syringe, thus possibly using less of of the product and better contact if the binding is instant? Just thinking out loud.

 

[taricha]

So, I believe you said that it was possible binding to other organics before reaching green algae, if that was the case then would it be better to spot treat any areas of concern with a syringe, thus possibly using less of of the product and better contact if the binding is instant? Just thinking out loud.

The logic makes sense to me. Dan and I wondered the same, but he points out a reason it may not work.

I've been thinking about the delivery of this. If our understanding is correct, the chemical binds rapidly to surfaces in fresh water (as reported in literature), but hangs around quite a bit in saltwater (as per our measurements). So I have wondered if making a few hundred mL of distilled water with the product in it and turning the pumps off and delivering the algaecide+freshwater via spot dosing into tufts of target algae with a syringe would be effective. Maybe out of a plume of freshwater the attachment to algae would be much more efficient, and since we know it's surface active, then spot dosing seems a much better fit that tankwide.
Maybe one could knock out hunks of GHA this way with only 1/10 the amount of chemical than in a full tankwide dose.

I like the spot dosing idea. My impression is that the adsorption rate and therefore rate of algaecide activity might be too slow. But, it needs investigating.

I think I'd modify my idea of volume to say take the amount of algaecide (I'd try to see if i could kill or stunt algae with 1/10 the dose) dilute it with distilled water until I have enough volume to deliver squirts to whatever the algae is I'm targeting.

 

[wrassie86]

Hmm. I have a new bottle of algafix I've been reluctant to try and a few pesky spots of green algae I could not see treating the whole tank for. Think I might give the spot treatment a try. 1ml of algafix to 9 mil of DI water sound ok or would not be enough? looking to treat approximant area of 2x2 inches as test.

 

[taricha]

Think I might give the spot treatment a try. 1ml of algafix to 9 mil of DI water sound ok or would not be enough? looking to treat approximant area of 2x2 inches as test.

It's plenty to figure out if the idea has merit.
How big is the system? Assuming it's way bigger than a 10gal nano where that would just be the whole tank dose.

 

[wrassie86]

It's plenty to figure out if the idea has merit.
How big is the system? Assuming it's way bigger than a 10gal nano where that would just be the whole tank dose.

It's around 180 to 200g I think full tank dosage was around 20ml. Going to give this a try tomorrow, I will take picture of the small rock to be treated and again in a few days.

 

[Dan_P]

It's around 180 to 200g I think full tank dosage was around 20ml. Going to give this a try tomorrow, I will take picture of the small rock to be treated and again in a few days.

Is there a way to keep the Algaefix solution from being washed away by water movement in the aquarium?

I am guessing that the longer the contact time the better. If you could lay something like a small clean piece of cloth or better plastic on top of the algae and shoot the Algaefix under it. Just thinking out loud. Never tried anything like this. Maybe the hydrogen peroxide dosers have solved this problem.

 

[wrassie86]

Is there a way to keep the Algaefix solution from being washed away by water movement in the aquarium?

I am guessing that the longer the contact time the better. If you could lay something like a small clean piece of cloth or better plastic on top of the algae and shoot the Algaefix under it. Just thinking out loud. Never tried anything like this. Maybe the hydrogen peroxide dosers have solved this problem.

I was going to shut down the flow for half hour or so to help the contact time, but I will try the cloth idea since it would be easy to keep in place.

I tried spot treating hair algea with peroxide 3% some time back, it bubbled on the algae but that was all. Wound up using Flux RX tank wide and the hair was gone in a week or so. while it worked well and my large ball of cheato was unharmed its rather pricey from local LFS.

 

[taricha]

Is there a way to keep the Algaefix solution from being washed away by water movement in the aquarium?

I am guessing that the longer the contact time the better. If you could lay something like a small clean piece of cloth or better plastic on top of the algae and shoot the Algaefix under it.

Well, it's cheating if you make it certain to work. Takes the fun out if it.