The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[Dburr1014]

I started my first dose tonight.
I'm doing quarter doses of maximum nightly. I chose this routine so it's more consistent over the week instead of every other day.
Put the empty spoon on my hobby grade digital scale and clear the tare. I filled the spoon with actif and leveled it. A scale read 2.5 g. For my hundred gallon system I need 75% of that. Divided that by 4 and came up with 0.46 for a dose. I rounded up to 5 grams.



I'm sure subseas scale is a lot better than mine but this is what I got to work with so I'm going with it.
Mixed it with tank water dosed in the main tank and cleaned out my container with more water and dose that too.

My plan going forward is to wait a week and go to .7 grams.
After that week I'm going to go to .9 grams which will be half dose and that will be nightly.

 

[taricha]

Are you in academia or industry?

education. Frequently messing around to educate myself.

 

[Subsea]

education. Frequently messing around to educate myself.

Might we all succeed as well as you.

 

[sixty_reefer]

For those interested in the sorts of biopolymers involved see this from Hans-Werner for some discussion.




(This is not Subsea's goal, but...)
If what somebody wanted to do was to reduce the availability of N forms (ammonia/NO2/3) to nuisance growth, then "fancy" carbon sources are not necessarily required.
You can slam systems with high amounts of vinegar or vodka and the nuisance growth will fade - figuratively and literally as the pigment composition shows N-limitation.

Here's where I did exactly such an exercise a couple of years ago.


To be clear, I'm not saying this is desirable. Or sustainable in a reef tank.
Just saying it does happen.

More sophisticated carbon sources may be desirable in a number of ways.

I'd like a carbon source that specifically drove skimmable bacterial growth in the water - if I were daydreaming my organic carbon ideal.

Thank you for your work, I wasn’t aware that you had done this.
this test seems to go in line with how dinoflagellates are eradicate in Beuchat article and other methods that use high carbon dosing to fully deplete nitrogen.
The only thing I normally don’t agree is with the depletion of nitrates, this due to if a treatment was to be implemented in a system with many corals the risk of coral bleaching becomes very high due to their need for nitrogen also.
From personal experience I never had to deplete nitrates, I find that targeting organic matter that produces ammonia and other forms of nitrogen a more safe way to work. It may take longer to show results although keeping nitrates detectable will always keep corals safe imo.
I also believe that the ability of actif to target this specific nutrients instead of nitrates and phosphates a advantage at the moment, I would expect that if results become positive and easily replicable that in a near future that a diy carbohydrate could be produced for folks that don’t like to be dependent on it.

 

[Subsea]

“I find that targeting organic matter that produces ammonia and other forms of nitrogen a more safe way to work”

And this is where I have the most fun in Reefing. To find the right janitors for the job.

 

[Subsea]

“As a former municipal wastewater superintendent, I know with much research, that carbon source matters with respect to microbe mitigation. And not only does the carbon source matter, but when it is applied matters a lot.”

To make a point about finesse and “when it is applied matters a lot”, in the late 1970’s I left offshore drilling for 1 year and worked at municipal wastewater treatment plant that was converting from oxidation lagoon ponds to activated sludge. The activated sludge is reefer detritus/MULM.

At that time, a German consulting company had pioneered a process to stress bacteria with low oxygen so that as they recovered they absorbed more phusphate than initially in their membrane biomass.

Because I was operating a 100 acre oxidation pond while Shriever was building a circular oxidation basin to stir the detritus. I learn oxidation pond chemistry where oxidation bacteria consumed ammonia & nitrites then the same bacteria in the low oxygen areas of pond, Faculative Zone. PERFORM DENITRIFICATION.

https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/faclagon.pdf

PS: In two seperate scenarios, different bacteria were stressed with low oxygen: one bacteria sequestered more phosphate and another bacteria performed nutrient export of nitrogen as a gas released to athmosphere.

PSS: As I was contemplating on this, I remember Julian Sprung saying in Reef Aquarium V3, Science, Art & Tecnology:

“Nitrification and denitrification happening in close proximity of each other.” He called it coupled. I suspect the bugs were in the Faculative Zone.

 

[Swede Reef]

“As a former municipal wastewater superintendent, I know with much research, that carbon source matters with respect to microbe mitigation. And not only does the carbon source matter, but when it is applied matters a lot.”

To make a point about finesse and “when it is applied matters a lo”, in the late 1970’s I left offshore drilling for 1 year and worked at municipal wastewater treatment plant that was converting from oxidation lagoon ponds to activated sludge. The activated sludge is reefer detritus/MULM.

At that time, a German consulting company had pioneered a process to stress bacteria with low oxygen so that as they recovered they absorbed more phusphate than initially in their membrane biomass.

Because I was operating a 100 acre oxidation pond while Shriever was building a circular oxidation basin to stir the detritus. I learn oxidation pond chemistry where oxidation bacteria consumed ammonia & nitrites then the same bacteria in the low oxygen areas of pond, Faculative Zone. PERFORM DENITRIFICATION.

https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/faclagon.pdf

Nice article! I really enjoy this thread as it brings up some interesting topics and broadens your thinking. Can't wait to see what happens....

 

[Subsea]

“As a former municipal wastewater superintendent, I know with much research, that carbon source matters with respect to microbe mitigation. And not only does the carbon source matter, but when it is applied matters a lot.”

To make a point about finesse and “when it is applied matters a lot”, in the late 1970’s I left offshore drilling for 1 year and worked at municipal wastewater treatment plant that was converting from oxidation lagoon ponds to activated sludge. The activated sludge is reefer detritus/MULM.

At that time, a German consulting company had pioneered a process to stress bacteria with low oxygen so that as they recovered they absorbed more phusphate than initially in their membrane biomass.

Because I was operating a 100 acre oxidation pond while Shriever was building a circular oxidation basin to stir the detritus. I learn oxidation pond chemistry where oxidation bacteria consumed ammonia & nitrites then the same bacteria in the low oxygen areas of pond, Faculative Zone. PERFORM DENITRIFICATION.

https://www3.epa.gov/npdes/pubs/faclagon.pdf

PS: In two seperate scenarios, different bacteria were stressed with low oxygen: one bacteria sequestered more phosphate and another bacteria performed nutrient export of nitrogen as a gas released to athmosphere.

PSS: As I was contemplating on this, I remember Julian Sprung saying in Reef Aquarium V3, Science, Art & Tecnology:

“Nitrification and denitrification happening in close proximity of each other.” He called it coupled. I suspect the bugs were in the Faculative Zone.

@Nano sapiens
Fifteen years ago, when I first read “coupled” in Julanan’s book, as a marine engineer and an instrumentation technician on underwater blowout preventers, while I knew it to be true, I scoffed at being able to separate the measurement of each ones contribution..

Now 15 years later, I let the bugs and the janitors work it out and sometimes we are the biggest janitor.
A Cajun friend,
Patrick

 

[areefer01]

Thank you for your work, I wasn’t aware that you had done this.
this test seems to go in line with how dinoflagellates are eradicate in Beuchat article and other methods that use high carbon dosing to fully deplete nitrogen.
The only thing I normally don’t agree is with the depletion of nitrates, this due to if a treatment was to be implemented in a system with many corals the risk of coral bleaching becomes very high due to their need for nitrogen also.
From personal experience I never had to deplete nitrates, I find that targeting organic matter that produces ammonia and other forms of nitrogen a more safe way to work. It may take longer to show results although keeping nitrates detectable will always keep corals safe imo.
I also believe that the ability of actif to target this specific nutrients instead of nitrates and phosphates a advantage at the moment, I would expect that if results become positive and easily replicable that in a near future that a diy carbohydrate could be produced for folks that don’t like to be dependent on it.

As an aside I will say that when using both Bio Actif salt and now Reef Actif my nitrates went down. It had no effect on my phosphate at all. Also noteworthy is that I always bottom out nitrates whereas phosphates are high (Hanna flashing 200).

I couldn't say there is any correlation but in my case I do have to pay attention to my nitrates and bump accordingly to prevent going bingo.

Edit: also when I dose (1 spoon) I turn off my skimmer for an hour or two. Not sure if this is necessary but my reason is to let the flow spread it around first. Display is 210 gallons + 16 gallon sump + 18 gallon refugium. All in all about 200 gallons of water minus rock, substrate, corals, etc.

 

[Hans-Werner]

At that time, a German consulting company had pioneered a process to stress bacteria with low oxygen so that as they recovered they absorbed more phusphate than initially in their membrane biomass.

Because I was operating a 100 acre oxidation pond while Shriever was building a circular oxidation basin to stir the detritus. I learn oxidation pond chemistry where oxidation bacteria consumed ammonia & nitrites then the same bacteria in the low oxygen areas of pond, Faculative Zone. PERFORM DENITRIFICATION.

Yes, I agree, interesting to read it here.

To my knowledge two things may happen:

Some bacteria store polyphosphates as phosphate and energy reserves when exposed to anaerobic and aerobic conditions alternatingly.

The typical denitrifying bacteria and archaea are facultatively anaerobic. This means they can respire both, oxygen or nitrate. If oxygen gets depleted, for example at night, they can switch from oxygen respiration to nitrate respiration resulting in denitrification.

Nitrification and denitrification may occur in the same biofilm in upper and deeper layers. Even for example in highly aerobic soils denitrification may occur after addition of organic substances and with water saturation. In this way added nitrate fertilizers may get lost to denitrification.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I couldn't say there is any correlation but in my case I do have to pay attention to my nitrates and bump accordingly to prevent going bingo.

I don't think the nitrates really disappeared. Most of the nitrogen will still be in the system, only in different forms like ammonium, amino acids, bacterial biomass etc..

It is not necessary to have nitrate except you want to have it as an oxidant. Other available nitrogen compounds are as good or better than nitrate as nutrients.

 

[Subsea]

As an aside I will say that when using both Bio Actif salt and now Reef Actif my nitrates went down. It had no effect on my phosphate at all. Also noteworthy is that I always bottom out nitrates whereas phosphates are high (Hanna flashing 200).

I couldn't say there is any correlation but in my case I do have to pay attention to my nitrates and bump accordingly to prevent going bingo.

Edit: also when I dose (1 spoon) I turn off my skimmer for an hour or two. Not sure if this is necessary but my reason is to let the flow spread it around first. Display is 210 gallons + 16 gallon sump + 18 gallon refugium. All in all about 200 gallons of water minus rock, substrate, corals, etc.

Most of skimmate is bacteria, so turning off protein skimmer allows bacteria to remain in the water. Running a protein skimmer is nutrient export which means nitrogen. I don’t know the N to P ratio for different bacteria, but somebody does. I do know the N/P ratio of phytoplankton it’s 16/1 and for Red Ogo it’s 30/1.

 

[Subsea]

“Nitrification and denitrification may occur in the same biofilm in upper and deeper layers. Even for example in highly aerobic soils denitrification may occur after addition of organic substances and with water saturation. In this way added nitrate fertilizers may get lost to denitrification.”

@Hans-Werner

Permaculture & “zero till” farmers realize that soil microbes are pioneers in agriculture. The excess carbon dioxide in our atmosphere should be sequestered into soil microbes to grow things abundantly. It is the same natural processes going on for 5 billion years. Nature is much more efficient with energy than mankind.

I say, “Let the Bugs Rule”. Give ”Good Bugs” the right environment to proliferate and let them work out the details.

 

[elysics]

Has someone here switched over from vodka+vinegar to reef actif and witnesses practical differences, theory of goals or what it is supposed to do aside? If so, which ones?

 

[Nano sapiens]

@Nano sapiens
Fifteen years ago, when I first read “coupled” in Julanan’s book, as a marine engineer and an instrumentation technician on underwater blowout preventers, while I knew it to be true, I scoffed at being able to separate the measurement of each ones contribution..

Now 15 years later, I let the bugs and the janitors work it out and sometimes we are the biggest janitor.
A Cajun friend,
Patrick

Instead of 'Reef Keepers', maybe we should adopt the title of 'Reef Janitors' instead

 

[Subsea]

Member Tanks

Show off your tank and document your progress.

www.reef2reef.com

This marks the start of documenting Reef Actif protocoal. I estimate that 120G display holds 130G of water.

This is the third day and second dose was administered. I prefer to measure dry weight with scale. I added 3g in first and second dose.

End of week 1. Third dose of 3G of bioflock administered last night. Not much change. Things look ok.

I should note that this tank is skimmerless. The only carbon dosing is phytoplankton and DIC from cryptic sponges in cryptic & mud refugium.

 

[Subsea]

Please keep updating this pictures and any other observations you see whether they are positive or negative.

This is end of first week of dosing 75% recommended maximum dose every two days. I estimated 90G total in 75G display and dose 1.5 grams every 2 days.

Initally, when lights came on 6 houyrs ago, flame scallop had water stirred up as “he hung by a thread” and “flapped his jaws”.

A light dusting of diatoms has shown itself six hours into photoperiod several days in a row and then white sand at end of the day. I interpret this as nutrient recycling of diatoms into detrivores and overall nutrient reduction with sequestered organics in biomass of detrivores.

 

[Dburr1014]

End of week 1. Third dose of 3G of bioflock administered last night. Not much change. Things look ok.

I should note that this tank is skimmerless. The only carbon dosing is phytoplankton and DIC from cryptic sponges in cryptic & mud refugium.

Your glass looks cleaner. The film is less now than the before pics.

 

[Subsea]

Your glass looks cleaner. The film is less now than the before pics.

Yes, glass needed cleaning for two weeks. I cleaned glass before picture.

 

[Dburr1014]

Yes, glass needed cleaning for two weeks. I cleaned glass before picture.

And I thought that was a big break thru, lol