The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

exnisstech

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Reef Actif works best in tanks with sand/gravel/substrate. The coral sand/gravel used for reef aquaria is quite high in phosphate.
Hmm wonder if I should even continue down this path. I run barebottom and have to dose phosphate :thinking-face:
 

joefishtank

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IMO, it is generally easier and most successful to reduce GHA with herbivores (especially fish) than by nutrient control.

If one does want to try to reduce nutrients (or a trace element) to the point where GHA is limited in growth, you may need to ensure the corals in the tank are getting adequate nutrition in other ways than absorption of inorganic nutrients, such as dosing phytoplankton, organic carbon dosing to increase bacterial levels, dosing amino acids, dosing particulate coral foods, etc.

It is also important to use rocks that are already coated with bacteria or coralline algae to reduce places for algae to attach.
My tank is currently going through a GHA crash. Instead of growing thick and bushy it is starting to get thin and long and spread throughout my tank. I'm doing all the stuff you said but I'm using seachem zooplankton instead of phytoplankton.
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2-6-23
 
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Subsea

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a raise in nutrients is what causes micro algae’s to create the film algae that we are so familiar, adjusting those depleted nutrients will have different effects, for example in your silica article you were able to change from green to brown film by just making the silica nutrient more available. With Carbon is fairly similar at the end of the day is a replacement of the end user organism or a way to redirect nutrient to allow more desirable organisms to colonise surfaces, the film will still be on the glass is just more translucent and not visible to the naked eye giving a idea that the glass is clean. Similar to silica being a depleted nutrient to allow diatoms to thrive carbon is a limiting nutrient for heterotrophic bacteria and same as with silica one can increase or decrease those films with the abundance or depletion of key nutrients.

in relation to carbon being a risk of desirable organism to suffer is minimal if done correctly, desirable organisms will not suffer as long as there is a residual of nitrates and phosphates in a system. The risk of dinoflagellates only exists if nitrates and phosphates are fully depleted or if the carbon source is suddenly stopped, imo the mistake that folks often do wend depleting a system from nitrates or phosphates using dissolved organic carbon is the sudden stop of DOC dosing, it would be more safe to raise the depleted nutrient via dosing Vs stop adding DOC.
in addition corals (often the most desirable organisms) are mixotrophs and can get energy from preying on bacteria, zooxanthellae (autotrophic) will only be at risk if nitrates or phosphates become depleted. :)
This discussion is precisely about the Wild, Wild West of bacteria. Now we have detailed information on how some of the players perform. Considering crosstalk between bacteria in surface film of corals and in the interior biomass resulting in bacteria adjusting environmental conditions thru gene expression.

The first Avatar movie illustrates the connectivity of Mother Earth. While I believe in Intelligent Design, the science of Nature is quite complex. We are only beginning to understand the coral holibiont.

Recently, on the science channel, I watched German scientist demonstrate how fungus at root tips of trees supplied carbon to a struggling tree. The tree roots were in common ground as in a forest. On the surface, each tree was sealed in a seperate glass canopy dome. One dome was feed carbon 13 and one dome was feed carbon 14. When carbon 14 dome lighting was reduced by 50%, carbon 13 molecules migrated to carbon 14 dome. By reversing the lighting by reducing lighting intensity in dome 13 and raising intensity in dome 14, carbon 14 molecules migrated to dome 13.

THIS IS A CONTRADICTION to “survival of the fittest” proposed by Darwin in his book “Orgin of the Species”,


“On the Origin of Species (or, more completely, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life),[3]published on 24 November
1859, is a work of scientific literature by Charles Darwin that is considered to be the foundation of evolutionary biology.[4] Darwin's book introduced


Taking things one step deeper into the micro world of sub atomic particle science, scientist could not explain gravity until the discovery of the Higgs Boson Particle:

After a 40 year search, a subatomic particle with the expected properties was discovered in 2012 by the ATLAS and CMSexperiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN near Geneva, Switzerland. The new particle was subsequently confirmed to match the expected properties of a Higgs boson. Physicists from two of the three teams, Peter Higgs and François Englert, were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2013 for their theoretical predictions. Although Higgs's name has come to be associated with this theory, several researchers between about 1960 and 1972 independently developed different parts of it.”

In the mainstream media, the Higgs boson is sometimes called the "God particle" after the 1993 book The God Particle by Nobel Laureate Leon Lederman,[14] although the nickname has been criticised by many physicists.[15][16]
 
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Dburr1014

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This discussion is precisely about the Wild, Wild West of bacteria. Now we have detailed information on how some of the players perform. Considering crosstalk between bacteria in surface film of corals and in the interior biomass resulting in bacteria adjusting environmental conditions thru gene expression.

The first Avatar movie illustrates the connectivity of Mother Earth. While I believe in Intelligent Design, the science of Nature is quite complex. We are only beginning to understand the coral holibiont.

Recently, on the science channel, I watched German scientist demonstrate how fungus at root tips of trees supplied carbon to a struggling tree. The tree roots were in common ground as in a forest. On the surface, each tree was sealed in a seperate glass canopy dome. One dome was feed carbon 13 and one dome was feed carbon 14. When carbon 14 dome lighting was reduced by 50%, carbon 13 molecules migrated to carbon 14 dome. By reversing the lighting by reducing lighting intensity in dome 13 and raising intensity in dome 14, carbon 14 molecules migrated to dome 13.

THIS IS A CONTRADICTION to “survival of the fittest” proposed by Darwin in his book “Orgin of the Species”,


“On the Origin of Species (or, more completely, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life),[3]published on 24 November
1859, is a work of scientific literature by Charles Darwin that is considered to be the foundation of evolutionary biology.[4] Darwin's book introduced


Taking things one step deeper into the micro world of sub atomic particle science, scientist could not explain gravity until the discovery of the Higgs Boson Particle:

After a 40 year search, a subatomic particle with the expected properties was discovered in 2012 by the ATLAS and CMSexperiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) at CERN near Geneva, Switzerland. The new particle was subsequently confirmed to match the expected properties of a Higgs boson. Physicists from two of the three teams, Peter Higgs and François Englert, were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics in 2013 for their theoretical predictions. Although Higgs's name has come to be associated with this theory, several researchers between about 1960 and 1972 independently developed different parts of it.”

In the mainstream media, the Higgs boson is sometimes called the "God particle" after the 1993 book The God Particle by Nobel Laureate Leon Lederman,[14] although the nickname has been criticised by many physicists.[15][16]
Sometimes the survival of the fittest means "strength in numbers".
 

Dburr1014

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Nothing new to report.
I upped my dose to 0.7 nightly of "full dose".
The only change I see currently is, hair is getting long in some places and losing ground in other places.
Cyano is growing as normal in the sump.
The glass is getting a film, no more than usual.

I should take some pics. Tonight when I get home.
 

Subsea

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Going into third week of biofloc protocoal. I see constant slow improvement in 120G display at 100% full dose of 3 grams every 2 days.

I have removed 75G twenty five year mature system from Reef Actif dosing protocoal due to its inability to conquer Black Cynobacteria.
@brandon429 You & I will never agree on RIP clean, I suggest you focus your laser and do strategic cleaning of the “bad boys”.

I still say that live phytoplankton, live mussels that are freshly sliced and diced and liquid seaweed will surpass Reef Actif. Biofloc technology works but there is no one secret polymer to replace good husbandry. When I read Reef Aquarium V3, Science, Art & Technology, I now realize I must be an artist with the way I reef.
 

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brandon429

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The difference in yours and my posts is I’m working in others tanks and posting fixes at eight times the rate here. We will be able to track all these examples by watching what the posters update over the next few years, I have eight years of rip cleans already on file completed with after pics and happy tank owners and we aren’t having to buy or ship anything or depend on a seller.

this thread is 100% dependent on sellers. If their stock runs out, this method ceases. Tap water doesn’t run out for us (the mechanism by which we eject waste from filthy sandbeds)

all your examples are your tank, you control all updates and releases about good and bad outcomes, I must await the feedback from others who will immediately post bad outcomes should they happen.

my method isn’t very helpful to large tank owners, thats the downside of a real rip clean. There is no outcome downside, we can see in the threads.
 

Hans-Werner

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THIS IS A CONTRADICTION to “survival of the fittest” proposed by Darwin in his book “Orgin of the Species”
Darwin was also very interested in plants. What does "survival of the fittest" mean in plants?

I am not sure if we do really justice to Charles Darwin if we understand "the fittest" only as the strongest, fastest etc.. I think "survival of the fittest" in reality means survivals of the best-adapted. In particular Darwin must have seen that there are weak, slow and sensitive organisms which nevertheless are well adapted to their habitat.

Cooperation, mutualism, is also a kind of adaptation, maybe even the most unversal and widespread kind of adaptation.
 

brandon429

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A problem I see here is delayed compounding. This thread extracts nothing, it only adds to. I claim that's the formula for old tank syndrome for the masses, not that your tank subsea is going to see it soon. Your tank subsea isn't the masses tanks it's an outlier among public reefs and this thread isn't about fixing invasions its about biofloc for coral feeding.

The title of this thread is misleading and should be changed and relies on key wording to get readers that wasn't earned.


This non rip clean thread is an excellent study in advanced coral feeding

Don't oversell topical kills of cyano: chemi clean can do that too

This compounding from advising all entrants to leave all waste in the sandbeds has an eventual price, and it'll keep my actual rip clean threads busy, just give em some time to express based on tank gallonage. They will have thick well- fed corals but the reef itself will display old tank syndrome, eutrophication, as unexported reefs eventually do for the masses.

I fully advocate using this for cost doser after a rip clean but never in place of one - that's forgetting the long game.


The only thread that exists for correcting old tank syndrome in other people's reefs shows its done via export, not dosers and additions. We just completed another job yesterday with pics and updated the thread.

I'm working a new job in chat today, results will be posted soon.
 
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HomebroodExotics

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A problem I see here is delayed compounding. This thread extracts nothing, it only adds to. I claim that's the formula for old tank syndrome for the masses, not that your tank subsea is going to see it soon. Your tank subsea isn't the masses tanks it's an outlier among public reefs and this thread isn't about fixing invasions its about biofloc for coral feeding.

The title of this thread is misleading and should be changed and relies on key wording to get readers that wasn't earned.


This non rip clean thread is an excellent study in advanced coral feeding

Don't oversell topical kills of cyano: chemi clean can do that too

This compounding from advising all entrants to leave all waste in the sandbeds has an eventual price, and it'll keep my actual rip clean threads busy, just give em some time to express based on tank gallonage. They will have thick well- fed corals but the reef itself will display old tank syndrome, eutrophication, as unexported reefs eventually do for the masses.

I fully advocate using this for cost doser after a rip clean but never in place of one - that's forgetting the long game.


The only thread that exists for correcting old tank syndrome in other people's reefs shows its done via export, not dosers and additions. We just completed another job yesterday with pics and updated the thread.

I'm working a new job in chat today, results will be posted soon.
You don't own the term rip clean. And I seen one of your rip cleans fail the other day so I'm not sure why you keep acting like this thread is harming you in some way.
 

Tony Thompson

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Yes, Reef Actif is more than 15 years old now. I have to say I found the main ingredient by a screening. At that time (2007) there was a hype about some additives most of which where simply mineral particles (clay, clinoptilolith, a zeolith, etc.) which may have some effect, most likely due to adsorption.

I looked for something that may have a similar effect and tried different minerals and organic substances that may show the same or a similar effect. With most minerals in my eyes the results were very disappointing, I saw no effect. But with one of the organic substances I had a lot more polyp extension of Acropora and other corals in just a few days. I also saw a significantly better growth of the basal discs of Acropora which other users also described. Other users that were more fish centered reported "improved" behavior of fish with more mating behavior. With time I added some other biopolymers that improved or at least did not lessen effect and may address more bacteria species.

I did a lot of research on google scholar and bought some books and found no 100 % explanation until today. For sure it is a bacterial thing, it is repeatably positive, and due to the nature of the biopolymers it is a kind of prebiotic effect.

I learned a lot about bacteria mobilizing nutrients since then and I also learned to read and understand behavior of corals better, especially in relation to nutrients. There are probiotic phosphate solubilising bacteria in the genus Rhizobium. Rhizobium-like bacteria are known as diazotrophs (nitrogen fixers) in coral reefs and as symbiotic diazotrophs of the coral holobiont. I am sure it is in this direction, I think mainly the phosphate solubilisation. The brighter colors of corals strongly point in this direction. It is sometimes suspected as being a copper effect but no copper is added and no elevated copper concentrations are found in the water. Brighter coral colors are most likely the result of better phosphate availability and improved coral growth. This shifts the coral colors away from deep colors with high nitrogen to bright colors with improved phosphate availability and tipping the balance away from nitrogen.

Finally, there is no way to observe it directly but I want to make trials which may show the phosphate solubilising property of bacteria grown on Reef Actif.

Effects observed in fish could be due to general prebiotic effects or due to binding of ammonium and lowering free ammonium concentrations in the water. Also in fish phosphate solubilisation and improved availability of phosphate may have positive effects.
Thanks Hans-Werner, hope you are well.

I very much appreciate your input, interesting to read your personal understanding and proposition of the mechanisms and pathways involved.

Best wishes from the UK, Tony
 

Tony Thompson

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Darwin was also very interested in plants. What does "survival of the fittest" mean in plants?
Its a pity Charles is not on this forum, I think he may dispute the attribution of the statement ("survival of the fittest) to himself.

A considerably large number of links to publications, articles and thesis on this thread. Far to many for me to read and disseminate as to whether specific or mutual to the concept proposed. Surprised to see a link and citation to "The Origin of Species" on a reef aquarium forum. :)

I think I have read enough, time to get back to Reef Notes Vol 1 (Julian Sprung) 1988. Its amazing how the wheel turns in this hobby, the same concepts keep revolving only under different titles.

On positive note you may see a jump in sales of Tropic Marin® Reef Actif :)
 

Subsea

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Its a pity Charles is not on this forum, I think he may dispute the attribution of the statement ("survival of the fittest) to himself.

A considerably large number of links to publications, articles and thesis on this thread. Far to many for me to read and disseminate as to whether specific or mutual to the concept proposed. Surprised to see a link and citation to "The Origin of Species" on a reef aquarium forum. :)

I think I have read enough, time to get back to Reef Notes Vol 1 (Julian Sprung) 1988. Its amazing how the wheel turns in this hobby, the same concepts keep revolving only under different titles.

On positive note you may see a jump in sales of Tropic Marin® Reef Actif :)
@Tony Thompson
I see the thread as positive in that newbies should realize there is science & art to reef keeping and technology & gadgets will not solve bad hysbandry. I don’t see this as a marketing sales thread. Tools are good but they don’t replace knowledge & discernment.

PS: Not so sure Darwin was insulted by my taking poetic license with his THEORIES.
 
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Tony Thompson

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@Tony Thompson
I see the thread as positive in that newbies should realize there is science & art to reef keeping and technology & gadgets will not solve bad hysbandry. I don’t see this as a marketing sales thread. Tools are good but they don’t replace knowledge & discernment.

PS: Not so sure Darwin was insulted by my taking poetic license with his THEORIES.



I just texted Charles, but got no reply, he is probably in the pub with Joseph DH. Tuesdays is their darts night.
 

Subsea

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I just texted Charles, but got no reply, he is probably in the pub with Joseph DH. Tuesdays is their darts night.
Tony,
I should drink a Guinness with you some time, but I don’t know about going to the same pub as Charles.

Thank you for humor & wisdom.
A Cajun Aggie,
Patrick
 

areefer01

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Tony,
I should drink a Guinness with you some time. Thank you for humor & wisdom.

While not directed at me I will say that the only way to drink Guinness is in a pub on the Emerald Isle. And not the one in NC ;)

It just isn't the same sadly. Then again maybe I'm biased.
 

exnisstech

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Just checking in. On 2/2 I started dosing 7grains of reef actif every other evening after lights out. Too early to see any results yet but I did end up vacuuming the cyano from the tank. It was just too much and I couldn't stand it any longer. My other tank has cyano covering the green hair algae. Fun times indeed :rolling-on-the-floor-laughing:
 

Tony Thompson

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While not directed at me I will say that the only way to drink Guinness is in a pub on the Emerald Isle. And not the one in NC ;)

It just isn't the same sadly. Then again maybe I'm biased.
I would much prefer to drink a real Yorkshire Bitter here in the "sceptered isle" :)
 

Subsea

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With 75G display on right & 120G on my left on opposite 16 hour photo cycles I see both tanks lite up together for 2 hours twice a day. This morning both tanks are doing well with one exception due to carelessness on my part.

I use a 55G plastic barrel to mix salt water with Mag 12 pump and a 50’ garden hose to fill tanks in the house. With barrel outside and water direct from 800’ deep well in Trinity Aquifier which was an ancient inland sea that was full of diatoms I filled empty barrel half way with mixing pump and 5HP deep well pump. By the time I half filled barrel with water I had already added a 50G dose of salt and left for a short time to deal with barking dogs. When I came back to mixing station water was overflowing barrel at a rate of 10GPM. I THOUGHT nothing off it as I had just caught the beginning of overflow. The next day, 75G tank looked “somewhat off” and upon investigation, salinity was reduced from 1.027 to 1.020 with resulting death of flame scallop.

Today, salinity back up to 1.026 which is what the Gulf of Mexico is due to salt deposits associated with a narrow long inland sea during separation of Pangea.
 

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