The best way to vacuum your sand bed! Would this work?

[Dj City]

Looking forward to hearing how this works out for you since I'm strongly considering building one as well! Definitely keep us posted.

No doubt!

I will keep this thread and my build thread updated.
I will even take pics as I build it, while i'm using it and before and after pics as well as my thoughts on how it performs.

 

[SHNICI]

My fish don't know that.
Those are not bubbles, that is detritus coming out of the gravel. Not really much in that video because I moved the tank here 2 years ago so the gravel is fairly clean. I want some detritus, just not enough to clog the reverse undergravel filter. (the only system that won't crash) if done properly)

AS I said, I don't like sand in a tank for many reasons.

I'm similar here, and at the moment (for about a year) I'm not cleaning the gravel at all. You and few other guys from the old school are the reason I done my system with DSB (using 4-5 different types of gravel and sand) and I done undergravel filter (a bit complicated), but honestly is it way to get your way how you done it? Because you mention it's "reverse" and I can't get what you mean under "reverse undergravel filter".
The other thing I was thinking about (reading some of you posts here and from the past) is about the "diatom filter" and I'm on the way to build one by myself, using (one of this 2 methods for filtering):
1. in a canister filter for RO/DI unit with "50 (or less) Micron String Wound Water Filter Cartridge Sediment Filters" (like @Dj City link one) to connect it similar way like your Diatom filters with 4000-6000 LpH return pump with 1/2 tubing and charge it with DS (diatom shells)
2. to use the Vacuum Cleaner make it on parts and taking only the container where is the "this days hepa filters" (found few smaller versions which are cyclonic vacuuming for better performances if that work), they are with about/over 1 inch tubing and I can connect it to my return pump (8000 LpH) for the filtering process or to use it like you in the tank. Charging the filter with DS and filter the water.
Using one of this methods and stirring the top layer (probably 1/2" to 1") I can vacuum the gravel.
Just please let me know about the"reverse undergravel filter" what do you mean or show me where I can read about particularly.

 

[Paul B]

SHNICI a reverse undergravel filter is the same as a regular UG filter but the water is pumped down the tubes instead of up the tubes. So the water goes through the gravel from the bottom rather than from the top.

To do this I use a plastic container like this or any small plastic container. This is an old filter, but it can be a DIY container like I use now.


That was my old one, the one I have now is a little different and bigger but it doesn't matter. You just need something that you can stick your undergravel tubes into the bottom. My filter uses 3 tubes so this container has 3 1" tubes going into the bottom. This container sits just above the water at the back of the tank. Each tube goes to an undergravel filter plate.

Water is pumped into the container with a powerhead or any way you can pump water into it. I don't have a sump so I just have a powerhead hidden behind the rocks. Pump 150 gallons per hour through each tube, no more. Faster is not better. Slower is better.

Use gravel, no sand. You can mix up all the gravel down to the filter plate and you should do that yearly. If you put sand in there you mess up tghe entire system.

 

[SHNICI]

SHNICI a reverse undergravel filter is the same as a regular UG filter but the water is pumped down the tubes instead of up the tubes. So the water goes through the gravel from the bottom rather than from the top.

To do this I use a plastic container like this or any small plastic container. This is an old filter, but it can be a DIY container like I use now.


That was my old one, the one I have now is a little different and bigger but it doesn't matter. You just need something that you can stick your undergravel tubes into the bottom. My filter uses 3 tubes so this container has 3 1" tubes going into the bottom. This container sits just above the water at the back of the tank. Each tube goes to an undergravel filter plate.

Water is pumped into the container with a powerhead or any way you can pump water into it. I don't have a sump so I just have a powerhead hidden behind the rocks. Pump 150 gallons per hour through each tube, no more. Faster is not better. Slower is better.

Use gravel, no sand. You can mix up all the gravel down to the filter plate and you should do that yearly. If you put sand in there you mess up tghe entire system.

@Paul B Thank you about clarifying all that!!!
That's lovely, thank you !!!
I was reading about, but never got a clue exactly how to do it by myself.
So to clarify something: if I have a sump, I can pump after all the filtration from the return chamber clear water, or is better to use water from the tank (pumped in the box you show)? I have undergravel plates (old fashion) covered with eggcrate plates to protect them from the LR weight braking at points, bigger grains gravel followed by smaller after, not to clog the filter holes, followed by more fine gravel (I think was crushed corals) after 2 different grains aragonite (taking about 2/3 of all the gravel I use in), over fine crushed shells (to make under them the layer for nitrate filtration), over have again aragonite grains (mixed 3 sizes) and paleo sand/gravel that's 1/4 layer for the ammonia nitrite and detritus brake down.
The undergravel filters are separated on 2 sections covering over 4/5 from the tank bottom and are divided bi bigger 2/3 and smaller 1/3 plates with 2 separate tubes and the water flow is managed by air (no pumps connected to suck the water up). Do you think without any changes using that methods only with installing box like your and push the water down is going to work for me? (I can't determine that way which part will be the nitrate breakdown layer)

P.S. Sorry if here isn't the right place for discussing all that, and if need point me to the right thread to continue with questions if have, if there are any

 

[Paul B]

Shnici, If this is not the right place they will move it. The biggest problem I see is that you are trying to use different types and sizes of substrait. That will work for a year or two but with any type of UG filter, that grave,/sand will have to be stirred, mixed and cleaned yearly. By doing that you will mix all those different size gravels and make it all one harmonous mix.

A ug filter needs to work with just gravel because sand is to fins and will clog very fast causing unhealthy conditions.
I have tried this various ways over years and it won't work like that.

You also have to run the water down each tube about 150 gallons per hour, no faster or it will also clog.
This system of a reverse undergravel filter must be done this way only. That is the problem people have with these systems. They say they don't work because they try to use it wigh sand or run it to fast.

Remember my system has been running like this for 50 years so I know it works.

 

[SHNICI]

Shnici, If this is not the right place they will move it. The biggest problem I see is that you are trying to use different types and sizes of substrait. That will work for a year or two but with any type of UG filter, that grave,/sand will have to be stirred, mixed and cleaned yearly. By doing that you will mix all those different size gravels and make it all one harmonous mix.

A ug filter needs to work with just gravel because sand is to fins and will clog very fast causing unhealthy conditions.
I have tried this various ways over years and it won't work like that.

You also have to run the water down each tube about 150 gallons per hour, no faster or it will also clog.
This system of a reverse undergravel filter must be done this way only. That is the problem people have with these systems. They say they don't work because they try to use it wigh sand or run it to fast.

Remember my system has been running like this for 50 years so I know it works.

ok I see what you mean, at the moment I don't think the UG wil clog, because like I say I use over the UG higher grains gravel, the lower grains are over 4" higher grains layers and down isn't many worms to move the smalls down to the UG (I hope so). At the moment w/o nitrate filter mi nitrates are almost undetectable, I'm not pulling out from the skimmer almost at all whatever I do the settings, only if I really overfeed, but that really (say I feed few times more than I need) the skimmers (I put second to check the main one it's working), only then have some skimm out for about 1-2 hrs and that's it.
Only like I say I'm not sure if I turn the water direction now. I'm not worried about the UG can clog, because the build (the gravel layers I done it exactly for that, to can "flush it" if I ever need). But if I turn the water stream on reverse, then a bit over the middle I'll have nitrate destruction layer at some point, but till then probably I'll build up nitrates then. What do you think about ?
And something else the 2/3 UG filter is with about 8cm/3.2" gravel, the 1/3 is with about 10+sm/4"+ gravel and this part isn't the old fashion UG filter (with the small thin slits), it's all the surface on the UG with bigger slits, because of that I put there and much higher grains, to keep the smaller up on top and not to clog.
So tell me what's your point ?
I'll drop some photos from it to show you



P.S. OMG, sorry, I don't realise the photos are that many !

 

[Paul B]

I think you have enough pictures. I don't understand much of it. Are those tubes full of sand? Why?
The "grill" you have over the sand will not allow you to clean or maintain anything.
I think the sand is to fine as a UG filter won't work for long with sand.

That set up should work for a year or two, but I feel after that, it will be a disaster and need to be taken apart.

Just my opinion of course, but good luck

 

[SHNICI]

I think you have enough pictures. I don't understand much of it. Are those tubes full of sand? Why?
The "grill" you have over the sand will not allow you to clean or maintain anything.
I think the sand is to fine as a UG filter won't work for long with sand.

That set up should work for a year or two, but I feel after that, it will be a disaster and need to be taken apart.

Just my opinion of course, but good luck

So the tubes are the tubes which are connected to the UG filters, they aren't full with sand at all, there is going the water flow pulled out using air, and is pulling near 30-50 gallons per hour, I can bring that up to 80-90 gallons per hour.
The grill is filled with higher grains gravel 4-7mm grains, and I use it to keep the gravel compacted on place, and if worm go down, not to move it and to fill the space with smaller grains. Over it is aragonite and dolomite sand/gravel (particles size over 3-4mm, thick layer over 1", after start the mixtures between this grains and smaller 1-2mm and it's near 1.5" layer, after is a bit more fine. Sand, like a sand I have only small amount on the right side (looking the photos) just to simulate all the gravel in it to look like completely visible layers (like from different stages on the earth cycle (which you see on the front glass).
By the way on the photos 5, 6 to 18, you see the tubes which I made from PVC 1" which I cover with gravel and it's glued to the tubes with foaming glue, to look like the tubes are made/builded from sand, and that's to cover the clear 1/2"inner tubes where the water is flowing moved by the air (purely for decoration are the second tubes, looking from sand/gravel). On the photos 4-15 counted from the top you can see the clear tubes, after are the builded for decoration, which now are covered with dirt, greenish and red coralline algae, feather dusters and spirorbid worms )



Can you let me know the size of your gravel grains please? I know already it's aragonite, and what is the particular type, if I decide to replace my one ? @Paul B

 

[Paul B]

My gravel is like the size of rice.

You can see some close ups of it here.

 

[SHNICI]

My gravel is like the size of rice.

You can see some close ups of it here.

Like I see from the photos it look like 3-10+ mm grains size. And near 3"-5" deep, if I'm correct from the 3nd photo, or is more invisible behind the wide wood (if that one is covering the bottom side of the tank like rim/frame or it's rimless (can't see clearly from the photo).
It look good I like it, just I use smaller grains in the layers to can build the anoxic layer, and now I think I have aerobic, anaerobic, and dysaerobic zones in my system (don't have oxygen probe for liquids to can stick it down there, to check is it correctly done).

 

[Paul B]

My gravel is only about 2-3" deep. The fish dig allover the place so it goes from zero to about 5" in places. But it is easy to blow it around using a diatom filter all the way down to the filter plates which is needed for a very long lasting tank.

 

[SHNICI]

My gravel is only about 2-3" deep. The fish dig allover the place so it goes from zero to about 5" in places. But it is easy to blow it around using a diatom filter all the way down to the filter plates which is needed for a very long lasting tank.

I got it Paul, I'm on about 8 months now since I run the tank that way, knowing all what you say I'll have on mind what can happen or from where can get issues, and I'll be ready. all the time I keep additional tank, where I can transfer all the life stock and to rebuild the main if need, so I'll prepare and the gravel then to have something like your one.
My build and all the steps I done are for long term usage and to build almost completely close biotope, like I dane few times with FW tanks, but here still I'll need some stuff to do, which is making the hobby more impressive.
And because I was reading in many old systems how they are done with DSB, and UG filter w/o the need of skimmers, sumps, additional reactors for phosphates and nitrates, I'm trying to achieve exactly that (but with the usage of sump for refugium and skimmer which will be used mainly/only for water oxygenation [which at the moment is doing exactly that, and in very rare kases it pull out skimmate (when I set it up to be very wet)jard to produce foam at all using 2 Aqua Medic and Reef Skimmer 500 by TMC ]

 

[Butcher333]

Geez. I’ve tried so many ways to accomplish a vacuum device for my tanks. It’s always a fail. large canisters are annoying and keep losing prime and are a pain to manipulate as you’re cleaning. My last attempt was a ZooMed canister because it was small and I even placed a powerhead on the exhaust/return to tank to assist the canisters draw and to keep from loosing prime. My next attempt is going to be an external return pump, a small canister and a ball valve on the intake, so that I can move around without pulling air. I could even go from the display to the sump and refugium