The Blue Window - 500 G in wall, never ending build

[Dennis Cartier]

I am sorry, I noticed that the 4way was for returns, after I posted. Have you considered a true closed loop for at least part of your flow? That 4way (or even 6 way) would work well as a closed loop. It keeps the extra pumps out of the tank and with a little ingenuity, you can disguise the outlets somewhat. Just as an example, this is a picture of my bottom 1" returns, which sat right up front at the bottom in full view (and two in the upper front corners). I covered the fittings with rubble rock and eventually it was completely covered with GSP. The drain was a 1½" hole in the back wall with a screen over it. It was mostly hidden by a large arch in my aquascape. (This is on a 140 that I set up in 2006, so much smaller than what you have). There were no holes in the bottom of the tank, other than the factory holes in the overflow. The bottom returns were run down the back wall with black PVC and under the sandbed. I would never do that without a closed loop system, but the upflow was awesome.

Neat idea on hiding the front returns in the sand. You had me scratching my head when you said there were no holes in the bottom of the tank until I got to the second last sentence. When I planned out the tank, I wanted as few holes in the actual tank as possible. I read about peoples experiences about closed loops revolving around eventually leaking. For that reason I chose not to include one. The tank is pretty much a solid box except for a 24" x 1.5" opening CNC'd out of the top of the weir pane. I figure if I get a leak, then it is a main seam and the tank is a goner. Unless of course it is in the overflow box, and that should be pretty easy to fix.

What do you think of using one of the overflow's holes as an intake for a closed loop? The weir is 24" wide and the grates are 1.5" tall or so.

I have been looking at the centre braces that were added after the fact. They are siliconed to the bottom of the euro bracing. I hope they don't extend too low and make it possible for the surface eddys the gyre's put out to hit the side of them. I probably will not know for sure until I have the plumbing done and the pumps in for a test run. If they do pose an obstacle, then I will have to have Miracles do an on site mod to remove them or move them to on top of the euro bracing. So many things to still work out.

Dennis

 

[Fin]

What do you think of using one of the overflow's holes as an intake for a closed loop? The weir is 24" wide and the grates are 1.5" tall or so.

Honestly, I don't think that will work well. You will no doubt be using a high volume pump and I think it might pull water out of the overflow faster than it will refill, causing it to possibly suck air, or even make the overflow louder by increasing the volume of water going through the weir. Just my opinion though. I have never tried that and I don't believe I have ever seen an account of someone trying to run a closed loop in that manner.

My closed loop with the 4way ran flawlessly for 12 years, until I took the tank down. No leaks. I only cleaned out the 4 way a few times in all those years. One of the most trouble free pieces of equipment I ever used on the tank. I also used OM's Omni-Flex nozzles on the returns.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Honestly, I don't think that will work well. You will no doubt be using a high volume pump and I think it might pull water out of the overflow faster than it will refill, causing it to possibly suck air, or even make the overflow louder by increasing the volume of water going through the weir. Just my opinion though. I have never tried that and I don't believe I have ever seen an account of someone trying to run a closed loop in that manner.

My closed loop with the 4way ran flawlessly for 12 years, until I took the tank down. No leaks. I only cleaned out the 4 way a few times in all those years. One of the most trouble free pieces of equipment I ever used on the tank. I also used OM's Omni-Flex nozzles on the returns.

Ya, that is pretty much I was thinking. That the flow required by putting the CL on 1 of the drains could potentially out run the water coming into the weir. I am wondering if the variable flow from the OM will even be noticeable with the 3 Gyre's and 2 Tunze 6105's in there. The total flow (at max) will be 6000 + (5300 x 2) + (3400 x 2) = 23,400 gph. I could see where the 1500 gph I could hope to get from an OM on one of the return pumps could get lost in the crowd. Might just forego it all together.

For return pumps, I am hoping to get something good. So far Abyzz look to be the best ones I can easily access. If I am going to stick to the plan of getting 2 matching pumps, the Abyzz 200 look like a good fit. I was also looking at the new Sicce SDC 9.0 pumps. Totally different level of pump mind you, but might work as the secondary pump (1 Abyzz 200 & 1 Sicce SDC 9.0).

See this build thread is already working out. In the past I would have bought pump A, then pump B (because I thought it better) and then pump C (because those other 2 were not as good), then pump D, etc. By the end I would have 9 different pump families, none of which would be the ones I ultimately go with. Now I can just post them here and wait for the dust to settle and then buy the obvious winner.

Dennis

 

[Fin]

Ya, that is pretty much I was thinking. That the flow required by putting the CL on 1 of the drains could potentially out run the water coming into the weir. I am wondering if the variable flow from the OM will even be noticeable with the 3 Gyre's and 2 Tunze 6105's in there. The total flow (at max) will be 6000 + (5300 x 2) + (3400 x 2) = 23,400 gph. I could see where the 1500 gph I could hope to get from an OM on one of the return pumps could get lost in the crowd. Might just forego it all together.

For return pumps, I am hoping to get something good. So far Abyzz look to be the best ones I can easily access. If I am going to stick to the plan of getting 2 matching pumps, the Abyzz 200 look like a good fit. I was also looking at the new Sicce SDC 9.0 pumps. Totally different level of pump mind you, but might work as the secondary pump (1 Abyzz 200 & 1 Sicce SDC 9.0).

See this build thread is already working out. In the past I would have bought pump A, then pump B (because I thought it better) and then pump C (because those other 2 were not as good), then pump D, etc. By the end I would have 9 different pump families, none of which would be the ones I ultimately go with. Now I can just post them here and wait for the dust to settle and then buy the obvious winner.

Dennis

While I enjoyed having the 4way on a closed loop on my 140, I am going with two 3/4" Sea Swirls (with Euro-Brace brackets) on my new Reef Savvy. Also two MP-40s. More random flow. Again, my 125 system is small potatoes compared to yours.

I can't really comment on the Abyzz pumps. Out of my price range. If the tank were mine, I would probably be looking at one or two AC external ReeFlo Hammerhead Gold pumps (6000gph @ 0' head - for $500). They don't have the fancy controller and are not as energy efficient, but they are quality, reliable pumps and can be dialed back via a ball or gate valve on the output side, if necessary. On the Darts, ReeFlo told me in response to my inquiry, that the pump could be dialed back to about 40% after the output, without damaging the pump.

Oh, BTW, the maximum flow rate through an OM 4way is 7,000 gph, not 1500 that you had mentioned. I didn't know if you were referring to the pump's max flow, or the valve.

Anyway, good luck on the build and I am excited to just be following along.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

While I enjoyed having the 4way on a closed loop on my 140, I am going with two 3/4" Sea Swirls (with Euro-Brace brackets) on my new Reef Savvy. Also two MP-40s. More random flow. Again, my 125 system is small potatoes compared to yours.

I can't really comment on the Abyzz pumps. Out of my price range. If the tank were mine, I would probably be looking at one or two AC external ReeFlo Hammerhead Gold pumps (6000gph @ 0' head - for $500). They don't have the fancy controller and are not as energy efficient, but they are quality, reliable pumps and can be dialed back via a ball or gate valve on the output side, if necessary. On the Darts, ReeFlo told me in response to my inquiry, that the pump could be dialed back to about 40% after the output, without damaging the pump.

Oh, BTW, the maximum flow rate through an OM 4way is 7,000 gph, not 1500 that you had mentioned. I didn't know if you were referring to the pump's max flow, or the valve.

Anyway, good luck on the build and I am excited to just be following along.

I guess it would depend on how close to the maximum flow I would intend to run the DC pump as compared to the AC. For the AC, the power usage would not change even when restricted by a valve, whereas the DC pump can be scaled back and the power usage would drop proportionally with the flow rate. As you noted, huge difference on cost. Also the DC pump can be operated internally, and the AC would require external mounting. My sump is a pretty plain 100 G stock tank, and if I can avoid requiring external bulkheads, that would be a bonus. I wonder how many people toss pumps like the Abyzz ones in their sump though? If I end up mounting it externally anyway, then the ability to be operated internally is moot.

I was just relating the flow through the OM to what I expected from the pump I was considering for that (Tunze SDC 9.0).

Thanks, Fin

Dennis

 

[rushbattle]

I guess it would depend on how close to the maximum flow I would intend to run the DC pump as compared to the AC. For the AC, the power usage would not change even when restricted by a valve, whereas the DC pump can be scaled back and the power usage would drop proportionally with the flow rate. As you noted, huge difference on cost. Also the DC pump can be operated internally, and the AC would require external mounting. My sump is a pretty plain 100 G stock tank, and if I can avoid requiring external bulkheads, that would be a bonus. I wonder how many people toss pumps like the Abyzz ones in their sump though? If I end up mounting it externally anyway, then the ability to be operated internally is moot.

I was just relating the flow through the OM to what I expected from the pump I was considering for that (Tunze SDC 9.0).

Thanks, Fin

Dennis

The Reeflo pumps need a seal at least once a year, if not more. They are the obvious value king for pressure producing (non-powerhead) pumps, but the seal replacement or leaky seal is a drag. The energy savings (if there is any anyhow) is negligible versus purchase costs. I recommend redundant return pumps also, for what it's worth. The Abyzz are much quieter than the Reeflo pumps, even the lowest power models.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

The Reeflo pumps need a seal at least once a year, if not more. They are the obvious value king for pressure producing (non-powerhead) pumps, but the seal replacement or leaky seal is a drag. The energy savings (if there is any anyhow) is negligible versus purchase costs. I recommend redundant return pumps also, for what it's worth. The Abyzz are much quieter than the Reeflo pumps, even the lowest power models.

Yes, I heard that about the seals. That would definitely be a drag. Especially for someone who is not regimented on maintenance. I don't expect the energy savings to offset the difference in purchase price, though my local electricity prices have shot up over the past few years. I am still leaning towards the Abyzz pumps. I made a thread in the hardware and filtration forum about this same topic to see if there are any other suggested pumps (other than Abyzz 200 and Sicce SDC 9.0).

Dennis

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I have not ordered them yet, but I have pretty much decided to go with 3 of the Sicce SDC 9.0 pumps. Two of the units will be installed and sharing return duties and the 3rd will be a spare for maintenance swaps or for addressing failures down the line. It came down to what I expect to get for flow from my overflow setup. I have a 22" weir on the short end of the tank, with a 3 x 1.5" drain configuration, and an (expected) 42" drop to the sump. Everything I could find online seemed to suggest that 3000 GPH was possible from this combination, so I plan to shoot for 2500 GPH split between the 2 Sicce pumps.

I doubt I will integrate the OM to the return and just go with the in tank flow devices instead. I plan to integrate a 300 G stock tank into this system as a frag area, so the OM will be in the running to provide flow for that area in the future. The 300 G stock tank was originally purchased to be the sump, but when I got it home, I discovered the vendor's website had the dimensions wrong and it would not fit under the stand. So I ordered a smaller stock tank (100 G) to be the sump and will have a dedicated 300G frag tub. Frags always look best from overhead anyway!

Still waiting for my order of extrusions to arrive so that I can work on the walk platform and rear support structures. Once those are complete, things should get more interesting.

Dennis

 

[mch1984]

I guess I didn't realize you were running the stock tanks for sump/frag system. Looking forward to seeing that, I plan on using the 300 and a 150 in my fish room.

 

[Fin]

I have not ordered them yet, but I have pretty much decided to go with 3 of the Sicce SDC 9.0 pumps. Two of the units will be installed and sharing return duties and the 3rd will be a spare for maintenance swaps or for addressing failures down the line. It came down to what I expect to get for flow from my overflow setup. I have a 22" weir on the short end of the tank, with a 3 x 1.5" drain configuration, and an (expected) 42" drop to the sump. Everything I could find online seemed to suggest that 3000 GPH was possible from this combination, so I plan to shoot for 2500 GPH split between the 2 Sicce pumps.

I doubt I will integrate the OM to the return and just go with the in tank flow devices instead. I plan to integrate a 300 G stock tank into this system as a frag area, so the OM will be in the running to provide flow for that area in the future. The 300 G stock tank was originally purchased to be the sump, but when I got it home, I discovered the vendor's website had the dimensions wrong and it would not fit under the stand. So I ordered a smaller stock tank (100 G) to be the sump and will have a dedicated 300G frag tub. Frags always look best from overhead anyway!

Still waiting for my order of extrusions to arrive so that I can work on the walk platform and rear support structures. Once those are complete, things should get more interesting.

Dennis

At least more wallet friendly that 2-3 Abyzz pumps.

As far as the mention of the seals on the ReeFlo pumps, I will say that I only changed the seal on mine three times over a 12 year period. Not really that big of a deal to change.

 

[rushbattle]

At least more wallet friendly that 2-3 Abyzz pumps.

As far as the mention of the seals on the ReeFlo pumps, I will say that I only changed the seal on mine three times over a 12 year period. Not really that big of a deal to change.

Nice, that’s very cool. What alk/Ca level do you run normally? Do you have a sand bed? Wonder why yours last so long and many others, including mine, last around a year. You are doing something right!

 

[Fin]

Nice, that’s very cool. What alk/Ca level do you run normally? Do you have a sand bed? Wonder why yours last so long and many others, including mine, last around a year. You are doing something right!

I tore the tank down a little more than a year ago, but I went back and looked at some of my parameter readings in my Aquarimate app (when I was keeping track) and it looks like my average calcium was about 430 and average alk was 9.5. I did have a fine oolitic sand bed of about 3 inches depth. The pump was on a closed loop and the inlet was mounted high on the back wall, so I wouldn't get sand into the OM 4-Way, or the pump. Usually when I stirred up the sand bed, I would turn the closed loop off.

I know I didn't buy anywhere near 12 seals (1 per year) while that tank was running. Maybe I just got lucky; although, I am not known for having much good luck.

This was the tank.

On my new 125 gallon tank, I am using tandem Vectra M-1s for redundancy. They will each run to a 3/4" sea swirl.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I guess I didn't realize you were running the stock tanks for sump/frag system. Looking forward to seeing that, I plan on using the 300 and a 150 in my fish room.

I did not mention the sump much in the thread and only brought the frag tub up recently. It feels a bit odd using a stock tank (ST) as the sump on this build as it does not fit in with my other equipment choices, but really all I need is something to hold some water, where I can install an ATO, return pumps, a skimmer (if I go internal), utility pumps, reactors, fuge (if I go that route), etc. I know I could go with an off shelf glass aquarium instead, but that would be more fragile and harder to drill. My only concerns with the ST is the bottom drain looks like it may be a challenge to replace with off the shelf bulkheads and any holes drilled for bulkheads will result in slight slopes to the piping mirroring the slope of the ST walls. The height on the ST will allow plenty of extra head room for water to drain to when the DT pumps are off, but the expected 13-14" of clearance between the stand top and the ST rim will make passage of large equipment difficult. I have a MRC MR-2R skimmer that I planned on using with this system. The ST should provide enough clearance to allow the skimmer to pass over the rim, but working on it and general ease of access may be compromised too much. For that matter, the same concern may apply to me. If I have to be a Cirque du Soleil performer to maintain hardware in the sump, that is going to get old fast. To add insult to injury, to reach the side of the sump, I will be on my hands and knees crawling under the work platform that will run across the back of the tank. I am about to engage trades people for quotes on the facade. I will try to make sure that the lower portion of the facade gives easy access to the sump (and all under tank hardware) from the front.

The 300 G stock tank was an afterthought after realizing that it would not fit under the tank. I stored it in the garage and after awhile just assumed I would integrate it to the system. The only place for it, will be between the door and the work platform, up against the wall of the fishroom. While I was in the garage recently taking measurements for the FRP grating for the platform floor, the width of the 300 G ST jumped out at me. It looked too wide to clear the door (not allow at least a 90 degree swing) and the work platform. Sure enough when I measured, I was going to need at least another 6 " of space for the width. While considering my options, I realized my work platform is tall enough (39") to allow the edge of the stock tank to slide under the WP. The only restriction is that the WP would be limited to 3 vertical braces to not obstruct the edge that needs to slide under the WP. Honestly this restriction will make the WP far easier to live with, while trying to access stuff under the tank, and only having to deal with 3 set of legs instead of 5. I do plan to make sure there is a guard in place along the WP to prevent me from falling into the 300 G ST off the WP. Can you imagine the splash that would make?! I will also be installing netting to protect accidental introduction of foreign objects (tools, parts, etc.) into the 300 G ST from the WP. Constructing a scaffold above the frag ST for mounting lights should be pretty straightforward as it can be an extension of the WP. The vertical space above the frag ST is still being pondered. I would love to have a nice out of the way place to install some 200G poly tanks for NSW and RODI, and the space up to the 9' ceiling might be just the ticket.

Dennis

 

[mch1984]

My plan is to use the 300 as a "pond" and a 150 as my sump for the whole system. My original plan was to let the 300 just house a bunch of rock and be my fuge but decided to have fun with the 300 and do the"pond". I guess the advantage I will have is that I can access the entire 300 and 150 without it being under something. I can imagine the height of the ST being a problem under a tank.

I thought about the problem with the angle of the plumbing the ST would cause with bulkheads. I'd like to say I thought of a solution but haven't yet. One Idea I did have is maybe Uniseals would allow you to get rid of the angle being they are more flexable. I have never used uniseals but I have read people have had great luck with them. Just a though and maybe something to mess with and see if it helps that problem.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

My plan is to use the 300 as a "pond" and a 150 as my sump for the whole system. My original plan was to let the 300 just house a bunch of rock and be my fuge but decided to have fun with the 300 and do the"pond". I guess the advantage I will have is that I can access the entire 300 and 150 without it being under something. I can imagine the height of the ST being a problem under a tank.

I thought about the problem with the angle of the plumbing the ST would cause with bulkheads. I'd like to say I thought of a solution but haven't yet. One Idea I did have is maybe Uniseals would allow you to get rid of the angle being they are more flexable. I have never used uniseals but I have read people have had great luck with them. Just a though and maybe something to mess with and see if it helps that problem.

What will be in the "pond"? Is it like a tide pool theme? My original plan for the 300, was to have it full of BTAs and rockflower anemones. After thinking about the need for a place to house frags either entering or having been fragged (intentionally or naturally) and waiting to be removed, the 300 came to mind. I would not want to mix BTAs and rock flowers with SPS frags though, as I can just imagine the chaos that could ensue. I have 3 BTAs in my frag tank currently, and 1 of them has a habit of walking around every 3 months or so, and I have to track him down and put him back on the anemone rock. He grumbles a bit, but ultimately settles back in with the other 2 until the next time he decides to go for a walk.

Yes the height of the ST does concern me. The unused volume of the ST (while the pumps are on) will be appreciated. Each inch of water that falls after the pumps are shutoff is 15 gallons in my size of tank. Plus whatever the overflow box holds. I may have to look for a different ST that is only 60% of the height of the 100 G one to give more room for access.

I have used uni-seals before. They are pretty tight, and I am not sure how well they would take to flexing. I seem to recall, they flex to a point and then they leak. A bulkhead on the bottom of the ST may also be a possibility. I guess it depends how high the ST is off the floor. Actually, I guess I could just use flexible PVC pipe instead of rigid and not worry about the angle. That might be the best idea of all.

Dennis

 

[Fudsey]

You could divide the 300 with eggcrate and have both nems and SPS.

Just a thought

 

[Paleozoic_reefer]

OMG!! This build is the perfect example of “Go BIG or Go HOME!!!””! Can’t wait to see it done!

 

[mch1984]

I’m glad you said that, flex pvc may be the answer with bulkheads. At least get you from ST to the hard plumbing.

The pond be some bigger more aggressive fish I would not want in my reef. Probably have some Anemones and stuff as well, I’m afraid to put them in my reef as well (minus rock flower). I’m starting to build a list, blue line grouper, red breasted wrasse, a puffer, some kind of angel and an eel. I’ll have some other stuff as well but just starting to think about it. Will probably do some marine plants as well.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I’m glad you said that, flex pvc may be the answer with bulkheads. At least get you from ST to the hard plumbing.

The pond be some bigger more aggressive fish I would not want in my reef. Probably have some Anemones and stuff as well, I’m afraid to put them in my reef as well (minus rock flower). I’m starting to build a list, blue line grouper, red breasted wrasse, a puffer, some kind of angel and an eel. I’ll have some other stuff as well but just starting to think about it. Will probably do some marine plants as well.

I think I may have found the solution to my height issue of the ST and the access problems that would cause. There is a 50 G stock tank that will fit and will provide far easier access to in sump equipment. The tank is 30" x 41" x 15". There is no drain, but that is OK as I was not keen on the drain in the sump anyway. The only thing that I will need to take care of, is the amount of water falling after the pumps are shutdown. I expect to run the sump 1/2 full under normal operation and that only gives me 25 G of fillable space. Which is about 1 3/4" for my DT. I should probably plan on 1" of rundown for pump off. No need to cut it too close. I have a feeling that the 3/4" of unused space will still be heart stopping in practice.

That is cool about your plans for the pond. Will you still be able to see the fish well only from overhead?

Dennis

 

[mch1984]

I think I may have found the solution to my height issue of the ST and the access problems that would cause. There is a 50 G stock tank that will fit and will provide far easier access to in sump equipment. The tank is 30" x 41" x 15". There is no drain, but that is OK as I was not keen on the drain in the sump anyway. The only thing that I will need to take care of, is the amount of water falling after the pumps are shutdown. I expect to run the sump 1/2 full under normal operation and that only gives me 25 G of fillable space. Which is about 1 3/4" for my DT. I should probably plan on 1" of rundown for pump off. No need to cut it too close. I have a feeling that the 3/4" of unused space will still be heart stopping in practice.

That is cool about your plans for the pond. Will you still be able to see the fish well only from overhead?

Dennis

Not as well as an aquarium but still be able to see them. I figure I wont be spending extra on super colorful fish in the pond for that reason. Looking for big personality and fun fish to feed in the pond. My wife as always wanted a puffer, I think the pond would be good for one. With their personalities I think it would work well. Then I can have some aggressive feeders and that will be neat in a pond as well.

Yeah I'm sure you will do multiple test before you completely trust it.