The BRS 160: 10 Weeks of the Triton Method | BRStv Investigates

Discussion in 'Bulk Reef Supply' started by randyBRS, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. Randy Holmes-Farley

    Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Expert Contributor Article Contributor

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    This idea is widely believed, but I think it is not entirely complete in its description of the process.

    Degrading organics can add CO2, and added CO2 lowers pH. If that is what you mean, that's perfect. CO2 and carbonate alkalinity together mathematically determine the pH.

    But if the carbonate alkalinity is normal, the only other factor in determining pH is the CO2 level in the water. "Acidic substances" do not lower pH in seawater just by being there. They may reduce alkalinity when first added, and some may even mislead aquarists in determining the relationship between total alkalinity and carbonate alkalinity, but they are not lowering pH (unless they degrade to CO2). :)
     
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  2. Bouncingsoul39

    Bouncingsoul39 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the clarification. I've come across many a tanks in the past while doing professional aquarium maintenance with "Old Tank Syndrome" that had severely depressed Ph. I now know that this due to increased CO2 and not actual acidic substances.
     
  3. Ryanbrs

    Ryanbrs Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    Quite a few questions here but I will do my best : )

    I think the ionic balance you are referring to is in relation to increased salinity or related changes from the 4 parts. They suggest skimming wet and letting the ATO replenish with freshwater to account for this. If this doesn't keep up just remove a gallon of water periodically but it shouldn't be often. We will continue the ICP testing and this will give a window into if this an accurate approach or statement.

    The Ph ranges between 8.0 and 8.2 on weekdays because there is so much co2 in the building from the 60+ people who work here. On weekends when only a few people are here it ranges between 8.25 and 8.35. I will try and share how that goes with the updates.

    I don't think adding the 40 ml of Triton solution a day can be considered a water change because we are not removing a water unless you consider the wet skimming. Even with that, I'm not sure if that gets to the spirit of what a water change means to most reefers.

    The Triton core 7 doesn't need to be diluted. I think the version you are referring to is the older base elements version.

    I have only had issues with cheato getting out of the fuge when it is first added and there are often lots of tiny bits. Once it grows out into long strands I haven't encountered that. I do understand the desire for a clean looking sump :)

    The tank did look better on Zeo but I think that's related to the change and not Triton. It happened almost immediately and there is no way the tank could respond that way to a few doses of 4 part, it was almost certainly all the system changes.

    I am not sold either. I am sold that there is a plausible concept here worth exploring and sharing the progress on. Hopefully watching the progress will be beneficial to answering many of these questions. We strongly suggested this week that reefers don't jump on the bandwagon and wait and see what our long-term results are first.

    I agree 100%. The value proposition on KZ and Triton is not lowest available cost, not even close : ) Almost everyone here in the office has had some awesome kalk and two part tanks, there is no disputing the results. As always I think the hobby is looking for advancements in every direction, cheaper, easier, faster, more colorful ... Everyone has different priorities, I think some of the longest and least helpful debates are the result of forgetting all of our priorities are different or trying to convince people to change their priorities.

    The buckets comments and goofy scenes we shot are meant to be somewhat humorous but also get to the heart of the chore that's is related to this :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2017
  4. MnFish1

    MnFish1 Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    I never said that Triton said water changes are useless. In fact I said its common for Triton to recommend water changes for contaminants. I was making the point that many people here are making the claim that regular water changes are 'useless'. You are placing emphasis on the word 'useless' - Im using it synonymously with 'not required', 'rarely required', 'not needed' if one is using the Triton method. The main rationale that BRS is testing Triton - is that the need for water changes will be eliminated or drastically reduced.

    Triton doesn't measure 'all contaminants' - nor does anyone else.

    I did not defend doing weekly water changes - I do not do weekly water changes.
     
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  5. TbyZ

    TbyZ Well-Known Member

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  6. randyBRS

    randyBRS BRStv Apprentice :-P R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

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  7. revhtree

    revhtree Owner Administrator Staff Member Team R2R R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Photo of the Month Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor Partner Member 2018

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    Great info!
     
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  8. sweat90lx

    sweat90lx Member

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    Really like the flow rates on the gyres.
    I need to try something like that with my jebaos. That program should work if I'm running them off variable speed port and set the lowest setting at 30%.
     
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  9. Roggio

    Roggio Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor

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    @Ryanbrs Is like the Steve Irwin of reef tanks; he shares his passion with the world. Instead or saying gorgeous he just says awesome.
     
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  10. Terence

    Terence Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    Great video. One thing maybe Ryan and team can do is save those Gyre settings as Schemes so you can search for them in your Apex Fusion dashboard and simply load them up to use with your gyres. Here is a video on how Schemes work if you are not familiar. These schemes also work for dosing, radions, vortechs, kessils, and more!

     
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  11. Terence

    Terence Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    BTW, I am a recent Triton convert. But I use both the Triton system AND my calcium reactor to help supplement (kind of half and half). Within two weeks I could see a major change in my tank. It was doing good. OK really. But now six weeks later it is amazing the difference. The growth has been at least twice as fast on my acros and zoanthids that had almost completely disappeared are now coming back. Here is a video I took yesterday - no joke some of these corals have grown nearly an inch since I have been using Triton. If you want to read more about my tank and how I am using Triton, there is a link in my signature.

     
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  12. TbyZ

    TbyZ Well-Known Member

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    Crikey mate
     
  13. Terry DeMott

    Terry DeMott Member

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    can you use the setting on the Gyre for the wav to ?
     
  14. Terence

    Terence Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    No. Schemes only work with the same category of equipment.

    The WAV pumps also have a much more feature-rich set of flow options similar to what you get with the Vortech pumps. Pumps like the Gyre and Tunze simply can be made to ramp up and down.

    That said, you could easily emulate these same settings with the WAVs and also make the intervals slightly smaller as Ryan was desiring. All you would do is set up one side to have the interval you want, and then select inverse for the opposite side.

    Once you create the settings for the WAV, then you could share that with others.

    One more benefit of the WAV is that they do not require a separate control interface, pump controllers, or power supplies so it really helps clean up the wires under the cabinet.
     
  15. SharkbaitMuhaha

    SharkbaitMuhaha Member

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    How well does the Triton Method play with Ozone? Can this method still produce crystal clear water even without filter socks or water changes?
     
  16. fishbox

    fishbox Well-Known Member

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    My girlfriend is over here cracking up. I just watched the video (before seeing that I was tagged here). I heard my R2R name followed by my question. I lit up with excitement and started hollering... "Babe, Babe, that's me, that's me ... Ryan said my name"!!!
     
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  17. TbyZ

    TbyZ Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree at all with Tritons assumption that algae scrubbers don't remove co2 from the water, only from the air. If they can show any scientific study that came to this conclusion, I'd be eager to read it.

    As I understand it there is very little co2 in seawater in any case. It is quickly hydrated & becomes carbonic acid, & then almost instantly converted into bicarbonate.

    [​IMG]Figure 1 shows data calculated for all three species as a function of pH in seawater. From this graph, it is clear that if getting carbon dioxide itself is limiting at pH 8.2, it might be more efficient to get it from bicarbonate because so much more is present. In fact, roughly 200 times more bicarbonate than carbon dioxide is present in seawater at pH 8.2. In most reef aquaria the bicarbonate is present at between 2 and 4 mM (millimolar = meq/L), or about 122 to 244 mg/L bicarbonate. For comparison, carbon dioxide is much lower, on the order of 0.01 mM (0.5) mg/L at pH 8.2.

    The rate at which carbon dioxide is used by rapidly photosynthesizing organisms is fast enough that organisms can deplete the carbon dioxide in the surrounding seawater faster than it can be replaced by diffusion and other transport mechanisms through the seawater.

    http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

    So I have no doubt that the algae growing on a screen takes up the co2 from the water passing over it, just as a ball of chaeto does in a fuge.
     
  18. Terence

    Terence Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    While that may be true, I still prefer the ease of use of grabbing a two pound chunk of chaeto and chucking it out the door and into my garden to mulch down.

    Who wants to open up an algae scrubber, take out a screen, pull off the goop, reassemble it, etc. Also, there is a side benefit of the life that thrives in a big patch of macro - mine is teaming with pods of all sorts, snails, little stars, stomatellas, you name it.

    Forget the CO2, just do it because its easier.
     
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  19. TbyZ

    TbyZ Well-Known Member

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    I do. Much rather have the algae contained in a scrubber. It takes no effort at all. And not goop; ulva!
    You're making it out to be more troublesome than it is in reality. And then there's the design of the scrubber & how the screens are accessed to boot.

    My scrubber drains into my sump. Heaps of life in there just the same. I can utilise the sump for pods, rock & sponges, etc.

    Not easier at all in my opinion.

    I like the scrubber because the algae that appears on the screen appears naturally, from the system, unlike chaeto for example, where it’s introduced. Many people that start fuges with chaeto end up complaining about other algaes growing instead. This is because that's the algae that takes off naturally when given the chance.

    The scrubber screens are harvested weekly, & therefore the amount of algae in the system is controlled.

    Triton uses a huge fuge & a lot of chaeto that they leave to grow & grow, & die off. The least amount of algae that can be used to control inorganic nutrients the better because the exudates that algae release can contain sugars that are detrimental to corals. It can promote virulent bacteria & bacteria that can interfere with the functioning of the coral holobiont.
    Bigger is not better. Effectiveness is best, & a scrubber provides an optimum environment for growing algae in a much smaller area.


    A scrubber really cuts down on the room needed for growing algae, compared to the very large Triton fuge.
     
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  20. Terence

    Terence Well-Known Member R2R Supporter Platinum Sponsor

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    Lots of ways to do things. I have seen what it takes to do the algae scrubber - and I know what I do - grab a handful - chuck it out the door. Not saying it is unbelievably difficult, just more messy and cumbersome for many. '

    Also, an algae scrubber requires more power as you have to flow in and out of it plus you have the lights. I know you will say you simply tee off your manifold, but you pay for that flow one way or another.

    You are spot on though that if you are super tight for space, an algae scrubber is better than nothing.

    As I said, many ways to do nutrient export - and I don't have a personal horse in this race - so scrub refuge away people!
     
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