The current science behind attempting to save coral reefs

[LARedstickreefer]

There are those who bring a valid argument and those who say it’s a conspiracy with no evidence to back that up. The narrative that is created to combat this is that “they think you’re stupid”. Creating victims gets people excited and makes them dig in their heels even deeper.

I don’t think that you are winning anyone over to your side.

 

[Magellan]

The climate is changing. It does that periodically, and has done so for the entire 4+ billion years the earth has been around. Sometimes it’s changed so drastically that most life on earth gets extinguished. However, life finds a way and makes a comeback! Even with things like Fukushima constantly pumping radiation into the oceans. Even with a billion gas motors pumping exhaust into the atmosphere, and spray deodorant burning holes in the ozone layer. Even with cows farting methane all day every day. It will be ok people...the earth will balance out. It always has.

my .02 on temperature: when I first set up my tank, I bought the cheapest thermometer at the store. Consequently, my tank was running between 84-86 degrees for about 2 months. (Jbj with the MH bulb in the lid gets hot..that’s a rough estimate after I figured it out...could have been hotter than this but I know I tested water at 86 degrees with an electronic thermometer). My clownfish did just fine. My urchin did just fine. My snails and hermits did just fine. My damsel did just fine. I had a ricordea mushroom, 2 hammers, a Pocillapora, Kenya leather, and a montipora. They were mostly fine, the purple hammer was my first purchase and spent the most time in the tank and had slowly lost its color and receded into its skeleton, but everyone else was doing mostly ok. (Green hammer was thriving!) However, I did notice (in hindsight) that the Pocillapora had lost a lot of color and was kinda brownish, but was continuing to grow.

post apocalyptic temperatures, everyone bounced back, colored up and acted like nothing ever happened.


Conclusions: don’t buy cheap thermometers.

 

[CubsFan]

I don’t think that you are winning anyone over to your side.

Another narrative that is being pushed is “winning”. No one is winning here.

 

[Brian1f1]

Temp is one of the triggers of coral bleaching, and we generally worry about sustained temps over 85F. The duration of sustained is variable, and bleaching is trigged by high temp and a number of factors and in the environment (solar irradiance for example) , but it can be weeks or more. 80-84F is fine and is where we run our coral spawning lab.
Also, not all coral handle high temps in the same way - there are corals that can survive in temps over 90. Most don't.



Global warming is not a small slow temp increase, it only feels so from the human perspective. There is lots of hobby evidence that high temps can cause problems, and the definition of what is 'high' is variable.



I don't think it has anything to do with politics - climate/temp change is well researched, and there is plenty of evidence it is rally bad. There are also other human impact that are really bad. They all need to be addressed.



I think it is the overwhelming evidence, and lack of counter evidence that makes most of the challenges ignorable.



But we took all kinds of effective action to stop the degrading of the ozone layer - that was science based, and made a huge difference.



The names were altered to reflect the reality of situation as we better understood the situation - the problem isn't just warming.



The evidence is overwhelming and compelling. It matters a lot - if it is human caused, which it is, it can be human fixed.

Bravo!

 

[Brian1f1]

Sounds like this thread is turning into a “I’m right and you’re stupid” thread.

That wasn’t my intention. I’ve asked Cracker Jack to stop posting baseless/fabricated/incorrect talking points on climate repeatedly. It’s not welcome here.

I want us to discuss the plight of the reefs and what role we can play in saving them. That’s all. Take the crack pot theories and go and/or stay (please) and simply focus on what we can do to preserve the planet/reefs regardless of one’s personal skepticism of the cause.

 

[TexasReefer82]

When I was in the hobby mid 90s - early/mid 2000s, one of my tanks was an in-wall 75 gal with MHs and PCs for lighting, and during the summer the temperature varied from around 80-84 deg F daily, with higher temperatures on hotter days. I did what I could with fans, but that was as cool as I could get it. There was also a thought at the time by a lot of reefers, that higher temperatures were better, and the typical 77-78 deg F was too cool. Point being, a lot of people have run warm tanks, probably mostly because they don’t have a good way to keep cooler in warmer months, and they do so with no ill effects. If in fact a small, slow, temperature increase (e.g. global warming) was the cause of massive bleaching events, reefers should be running into temperature induced tank crashes left and right (e.g. massive coral bleaching caused by abnormally high temperatures should be repeated in hobbyists reef tanks all over the place).

Because it is so politically expedient to blame everything on global warming, other, potentially more likely problems might be ignored, which isn’t good for coral reefs or the environment. Furthermore, challengers to the global warming holocaust are either ignored or attacked so the only exposure one gets to the subject is via the militant “climate police”, which is by design (sort of like how late night television is designed to cram certain politics down everybody’s throats). I didn’t trust man made global warning because I lived through the Freon-induced hole in the ozone layer that was torpedoing us into another ice age. After I saw the renaming of “man made global warming” to “global warming” and then “climate change”, i realized the new names were likely adopted because they sounded better to certain focus groups, and/or were just easier to pitch... smells more like propaganda than science to me.

I realize that the climate changes. I’m just not convinced man has much if anything to do with it, and knowing there have been warmer and cooler climates, I’m not sure how much it matters. Oh, I realize the Chicken Littles have all sorts of reasons as to why this warming event is different than every other warming or cooling event in the history of the earth. I’m just not sure I buy it, but I didn’t buy the global cooling scare decades ago, and I even called hogwash on the catastrophic earthquake that was supposed to completely destroy Memphis, TN, back in the late 80s so what do I know.

What little warming we have observed, globally, over the last few decades may actually be due to CO2 increases; but it could all certainly be due to natural variation as well - impossible to tell the difference.

There's a MAJOR problem with the Global Warming hysteria... quite ironically, the global warming campaign seems to have caused everyone to forget about the multitude of other very real and provable man-made environmental catastrophes.

The Caribbean is trashed NOT due to global warming but due to disease outbreaks caused by inadequately treated sewage (FL Keys included) in decades past as well as the near extinction of the Diadema urchin. The Keys specifically are still hit hard by eutrophication from agriculture runoff originating from north of Lake Okeechobee. Where's the outcry for this???

World-wide causes of reef decline include overfishing, dynamite and cyanide fishing, land runoff of all sorts containing any variety of toxic chemicals, and very likely sunscreen chemicals from tourists... Where are the global campaigns for all these environmental issues???

Global warming is the current poster child for the environment but what has this campaign accomplished in terms of real environmental solutions and restoration? You can't blame everything on CO2 when the root cause is that the starving locals have taken every parrotfish and surgeonfish off the reef just to feed their families.

Our hobby, by placing value on the reefs and corals themselves, likely does more to protect, preserve, and restore this ecosystem than the global warming campaign will ever do.

 

[CubsFan]

What little warming we have observed, globally, over the last few decades may actually be due to CO2 increases; but it could all certainly be due to natural variation as well - impossible to tell the difference.

There's a MAJOR problem with the Global Warming hysteria... quite ironically, the global warming campaign seems to have caused everyone to forget about the multitude of other very real and provable man-made environmental catastrophes.

The Caribbean is trashed NOT due to global warming but due to disease outbreaks caused by inadequately treated sewage (FL Keys included) in decades past as well as the near extinction of the Diadema urchin. The Keys specifically are still hit hard by eutrophication from agriculture runoff originating from north of Lake Okeechobee. Where's the outcry for this???

World-wide causes of reef decline include overfishing, dynamite and cyanide fishing, land runoff of all sorts containing any variety of toxic chemicals, and very likely sunscreen chemicals from tourists... Where are the global campaigns for all these environmental issues???

Global warming is the current poster child for the environment but what has this campaign accomplished in terms of real environmental solutions and restoration? You can't blame everything on CO2 when the root cause is that the starving locals have taken every parrotfish and surgeonfish off the reef just to feed their families.

Our hobby, by placing value on the reefs and corals themselves, likely does more to protect, preserve, and restore this ecosystem than the global warming campaign will ever do.

There are plenty of activists that are addressing garbage in the ocean, over fishing, pollution run off etc. There are groups lifting protections on our environment in order to promote more drilling and fewer restrictions on coal and farming that result in pollutants going into our waterways. The people are well aware of these things. People walk and chew gum all the time.

 

[Thales]

Of course it can be human fixed... all we have to do is exterminate CO2 breathing, fossil fuel burning humans. Who do we exterminate first?

There are many other, less hyperbolic and less murdery, and more practical actions to take to fix the problem

 

[Waynerock]

People might be, our current U.S. regime is actively destroying the already woefully inadequate protections that were in place and/or were slated to be in place. That’s just the sad truth.

Why is no one getting on the countries who do contribute to our current climate issues? Why are Americans made to feel guilty and need to do something about this? Someone needs to get on China, India, some SE Asian countries, Brazil ( Jair Bolsonaro is just taking a weed wacker to the Amazon right now) and the other places that seemingly dump there waste right into the ocean and do not have the slightest care in the world as long as they see a big pay day! Trust me I grew up literally on the beach and this makes me sick but besides doing everything I can to help and do my part who is even attempting to stop these countries? No one! Everyone wants to get into the same room and talk a big game about climate change and fixing these issues but the real offenders are never mentioned. Just my opinion and everyone knows what they say about opinions but come on!

 

[Thales]

What little warming we have observed, globally, over the last few decades may actually be due to CO2 increases; but it could all certainly be due to natural variation as well - impossible to tell the difference.

That isn’t true. The evidence is compelling and overwhelming.

The Caribbean is trashed NOT due to global warming but due to disease outbreaks caused by inadequately treated sewage (FL Keys included) in decades past as well as the near extinction of the Diadema urchin. The Keys specifically are still hit hard by eutrophication from agriculture runoff originating from north of Lake Okeechobee. Where's the outcry for this???

The increased severity and occurrence of storms is a problem, the other things you mention are also problems.
There is much outcry about those things, more visible on a local level.

World-wide causes of reef decline include overfishing, dynamite and cyanide fishing, land runoff of all sorts containing any variety of toxic chemicals, and very likely sunscreen chemicals from tourists... Where are the global campaigns for all these environmental issues???

Those campaigns exist and should get more play, but not at the cost of doing things about climate change. Many of the actions proposed to curb climate change will also impact that other issues.

Global warming is the current poster child for the environment but what has this campaign accomplished in terms of real environmental solutions and restoration? You can't blame everything on CO2 when the root cause is that the starving locals have taken every parrotfish and surgeonfish off the reef just to feed their families.

Climate change is the poster child, not global warming. I don’t know anyone that blames all the issues on global warming

Our hobby, by placing value on the reefs and corals themselves, likely does more to protect, preserve, and restore this ecosystem than the global warming campaign will ever do.

I wish that were the case. I have yet to see much evidence that the hobby as a whole places value on the reefs and corals themselves. Some in the hobby do, but I have never seen any campaign or fundraiser grow any kind of legs. It is possible it could but it hasn’t yet

 

[TexasReefer82]

Thales, I respectfully disagree with you (and likely many others) about Global Warming.

In the interests of not hijacking this thread I'll stop commenting.

Maybe we should just straight up start a dedicated thread: "Global Warming - Prove me wrong" and we can all post our data, HAHA!

 

[CubsFan]

Why is no one getting on the countries who do contribute to our current climate issues? Why are Americans made to feel guilty and need to do something about this? Someone needs to get on China, India, some SE Asian countries, Brazil ( Jair Bolsonaro is just taking a weed wacker to the Amazon right now) and the other places that seemingly dump there waste right into the ocean and do not have the slightest care in the world as long as they see a big pay day! Trust me I grew up literally on the beach and this makes me sick but besides doing everything I can to help and do my part who is even attempting to stop these countries? No one! Everyone wants to get into the same room and talk a big game about climate change and fixing these issues but the real offenders are never mentioned. Just my opinion and everyone knows what they say about opinions but come on!

This is another popular narrative. The US is one of the biggest polluters in the world. We should be guiding others to follow an example of reducing emissions. Other countries are taking action. Some more than others. This is a world problem.

 

[Thales]

Thales, I respectfully disagree with you (and likely many others) about Global Warming.

In the interests of not hijacking this thread I'll stop commenting.

Maybe we should just straight up start a dedicated thread: "Global Warming - Prove me wrong" and we can all post our data, HAHA!

Thanks. At the same time, that would be a discussion about something no one actually talks about; global warming isn't a thing, climate change is. If such a thread were to be started, I would also hope that 'proof' isn't a metric because we don't really prove anything, we supply evidence and determine if it is compelling or not.

 

[Crashjack]

I thought the whole purpose of the Lounge was for off-topic threads, debates, and stuff that should be kept out of the normal flow of the site. I know it isn't for personal attacks but not agreeing with someone and saying so isn't a personal attack. I haven't even uttered the words, "You're wrong,", nor will I. It is amazing how people feel such a strong need to make people think the way they do and then when that doesn't happen, the thread should get closed, everybody who disagrees has no point and is totally wrong, people get called by fake screen names (I'm Crashjack, not Crackerjack by the way, but I kind of like Crackerjack).

Thinking outside the box, knowing there is a finite amount of coal, oil, and natural gas, maybe a better way to reduce CO2 is to ramp-up the burning of fossil fuels. When it is all gone we won't have to worry about the CO2 emitted by fossil fuels, and we can just focus on those pesky humans who refuse to stop exhaling.

 

[Thales]

My point of view is this. Certain political parties gain ground by spreading the fear mongering And propaganda of this so called “Global warming” or “climate change”. I don’t think us humans have much if anything to do with this AT ALL. The earth moves in CYCLES and yes the climate does change, that doesn’t mean we caused it nor does it mean it is permanent. All it is, is just FEAR MONGERING. WAKE UP PEOPLE DONT JUST FOLLOW THE NARRATIVE!!!

The earth does move in cycles. What we have been seeing over the past 100 or so years is nothing like the normal cycles. There is a massive amount of compelling evidence that the rapid and odd climate change we are seeing is directly attributable to human activity.

 

[TexasReefer82]

I thought the whole purpose of the Lounge was for off-topic threads, debates, and stuff that should be kept out of the normal flow of the site. I know it isn't for personal attacks but not agreeing with someone and saying so isn't a personal attack. I haven't even uttered the words, "You're wrong,", nor will I. It is amazing how people feel such a strong need to make people think the way they do and then when that doesn't happen, the thread should get closed, everybody who disagrees has no point and is totally wrong, people get called by fake screen names (I'm Crashjack, not Crackerjack by the way, but I kind of like Crackerjack).

Thinking outside the box, knowing there is a finite amount of coal, oil, and natural gas, maybe a better way to reduce CO2 is to ramp-up the burning of fossil fuels. When it is all gone we won't have to worry about the CO2 emitted by fossil fuels, and we can just focus on those pesky humans who refuse to stop exhaling.

I stopped myself because arguing about "Global Warming" (as it was called for most of my life) is a bottomless pit of back-and-fourths and everyone is playing with data/information that's incomplete and misrepresented. But I love the topic! Maybe we really should start a dedicated thread.

 

[Waynerock]

This is another popular narrative. The US is one of the biggest polluters in the world. We should be guiding others to follow an example of reducing emissions. Other countries are taking action. Some more than others. This is a world problem.

U.S. ranks among the 10 countries doing the most to protect the environment. Over a quarter of U.S. territory is protected reserves with limited public access like national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, and areas managed for sustainable use, a larger share than most countries. Additionally, only 3.3% of the U.S. population are exposed to unsafe levels of air pollution. And Yes this is a huge world problem not just the oceans, but the oceans control the planet and we are screwed. Some days I feel guilty having children because there adult lives are going to be rough but if we all teach them right maybe just maybe there is a chance, but people are selfish I think that is the biggest issue. no one wants to sacrifice two day shipping or there giant gas guzzling cars or there throw a way electronics. We are too soft on the people with money who are causing these issues (us included).

 

[LARedstickreefer]

U.S. ranks among the 10 countries doing the most to protect the environment. Over a quarter of U.S. territory is protected reserves with limited public access like national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, and areas managed for sustainable use, a larger share than most countries. Additionally, only 3.3% of the U.S. population are exposed to unsafe levels of air pollution. And Yes this is a huge world problem not just the oceans, but the oceans control the planet and we are screwed. Some days I feel guilty having children because there adult lives are going to be rough but if we all teach them right maybe just maybe there is a chance, but people are selfish I think that is the biggest issue. no one wants to sacrifice two day shipping or there giant gas guzzling cars or there throw a way electronics. We are too soft on the people with money who are causing these issues (us included).

“ We are too soft on the people with money who are causing these issues (us included).”

Wut?

 

[Thales]

Thinking outside the box, knowing there is a finite amount of coal, oil, and natural gas, maybe a better way to reduce CO2 is to ramp-up the burning of fossil fuels. When it is all gone we won't have to worry about the CO2 emitted by fossil fuels, and we can just focus on those pesky humans who refuse to stop exhaling.

The liberated CO2 will still be in the atmosphere for thousands of years or more before natural processes can remove it.

 

[Thales]

U.S. ranks among the 10 countries doing the most to protect the environment. Over a quarter of U.S. territory is protected reserves with limited public access like national parks, wildlife sanctuaries, and areas managed for sustainable use, a larger share than most countries. Additionally, only 3.3% of the U.S. population are exposed to unsafe levels of air pollution. And Yes this is a huge world problem not just the oceans, but the oceans control the planet and we are screwed. Some days I feel guilty having children because there adult lives are going to be rough but if we all teach them right maybe just maybe there is a chance, but people are selfish I think that is the biggest issue. no one wants to sacrifice two day shipping or there giant gas guzzling cars or there throw a way electronics. We are too soft on the people with money who are causing these issues (us included).

I agree. While I like the idea of personal responsibility, all of the problems we are facing can be more efficiently and productively handled at the manufacturing levels.