The decomposing phytoplankton and how can we possibly benefit from it in a Reef.

[sixty_reefer]

Well, there's nothing wrong with feeding dead phyto, or dead fish or shrimp or seaweed. Of course, we already do that.

I've fed dead phyto (ESV brand). Didn't see any apparent benefit for filter feeders (my reason for dosing).

If you want to claim that dead is better than live, that will be a very hard proof, and I don't see why its better than other sources of all of those same chemicals you posted.

Well, there's nothing wrong with feeding dead phyto, or dead fish or shrimp or seaweed. Of course, we already do that.

I've fed dead phyto (ESV brand). Didn't see any apparent benefit for filter feeders (my reason for dosing).

If you want to claim that dead is better than live, that will be a very hard proof, and I don't see why its better than other sources of all of those same chemicals you posted.

the reason you may not noticed the advantages could be related to the amount of the dose. For the example in my previous experimentation I was using 3.2ml per gallon of live phytoplankton. That dose was reached by starting from a very small dose over a large period of time to let the system grow with it.To look at the concept behind of what I’m trying to propose ( hopefully with your help and other that have a larger chemistry knowledge than I do ) We need to look at a standard carbon dosing system, for example if you had a 100 gal. tank with half a dozen pellets in the reactor I would think that would be pretty useless at doing it’s job. With this concept is very similar imo.

with this concept in mind I’m not trying to feed copepods and mysis shrimp, it goes a bit further, with the decomposition of phytoplankton I’m trying to feed the full circle of life, starting from microbes that get eaten be microscopic zooplankton ( the ones that live in all our tank surfaces but not visible to naked eye) that in turn will feed coral and larger plankton. Most of this life need to also be seeded during the process by introducing live rock.

in Addition I have in mind that as the microbes decompose the phytoplankton it could aid the denitrification process .

and yes you’re also right there’s no way on earth that I can prove anything of what I’ve just said. But most studies that I’ve seen do suggest that all life in the ocean is dependent on phytoplankton indirectly or directly.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Was more thinking about using modified F/2 with less phosphate in it. Certainly wouldn't be cheap though getting all the ingredients, maybe the main component solutions are for sale somewhere. Getting everything seperately would be around 100€, on the other hand that's a lifetime supply of F/2


Or did you succeed at reducing po4 but were unsuccessful at growing stuff

I was unsuccessful unfortunately, this was the only source I could think with a low phosphate

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not think there is any doubt that feeding phytoplankton can be quite beneficial for filter feeders that consume it.

The claim I'm questioning is

"The decomposition of phytoplankton could be more beneficial to a reef thank than live phytoplankton.

The list of things you posted from decomposing phyto is not likely different than decomposing fish food.

 

[ZoWhat]

You know... a decomposing body inside a casket has no benefit to the local ecosystem until it starts to oouz out the sides of the casket into the water table

 

[sixty_reefer]

The claim I'm questioning is

"The decomposition of phytoplankton could be more beneficial to a reef thank than live phytoplankton.

The list of things you posted from decomposing phyto is not likely different than decomposing fish food.

I apologise if you understood it that way, I just mentioned that I hit a wall with live phytoplankton regarding po4 on my previous experimentation, especially regarding the amount I need. In no way I’m saying that live phytoplankton is bad.

 

[ZoWhat]

I apologise if you understood it that way, I just mentioned that I hit a wall with live phytoplankton regarding po4 on my previous experimentation, especially regarding the amount I need. In no way I’m saying that live phytoplankton is bad.

It's not the live phyto that is bad, it's the unconsumed po4 leftover in the f/2 formula.

Switch to pure sodium nitrate to be your one and only fertilizer and you won't have a po4 problem climbing over 1.0ppm

 

[sixty_reefer]

It's not the live phyto that is bad, it's the unconsumed po4 leftover in the f/2 formula.

Switch to pure sodium nitrate to be your one and only fertilizer and you won't have a po4 problem climbing over 1.0ppm

I do have some at hand, will try and get one going and see what results I get, I do prefer the live as it’s hassle free once going.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s easy to suggest something without putting it to the test.

day zero:

This is how this tank looks, there’s no life to the tank the rocks were dead the sand was dead , there’s Cyanobacteria starting to form and some dinoflagellates. Couldn’t choose a worst tank to do a trial if I’d try.

the reactor:

For the reactor I’ve went with a simple design, may change it as it goes, but for now looks that will do the job that i need.

Initial dose 10ml

 

[sixty_reefer]

The list of things you posted from decomposing phyto is not likely different than decomposing fish food.

they seem identical I just feel that they do not represent same balance.

Phytoplankton ingredients

one of the most popular brands of fish food

 

[Aqua Man]

Phytoplankton ingredients

Which phytoplankton species? Spirulina or Chlorella perhaps? Reef smoothie!!

 

[sixty_reefer]

Which phytoplankton species? Spirulina or Chlorella perhaps? Reef smoothie!!

Hi, the one I’m trying at the moment is Nannochloropsis Gaditana. Made for human consumption.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Note: I believe that as the amino acids would be released into the water column, there should be a raise in ammonia in the tank that may cause a bloom in algae if the bacteria can’t handle it. @Randy Holmes-Farley is this correct that amino acids are a earlier stage of ammonia?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's be 100% clear.

What you posted for phytoplankton is not an ingredient list. It's a chemical analysis. Comparing an ingredient list to a chemical analysis is nonsensical.

Every one of the things on that phyto list would be contained in the fish food you post, and the only comparative info suggests the fish food is substantially higher in the amino acids and some of the vitamins.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

they seem identical I just feel that they do not represent same balance.

Balance of what is better with the phyto?

You cannot directly compare a list of ingredients to a chemical analysis.

 

[ZoWhat]

Furthermore on the Gillard f/2 formula:

Components	Stock Solution	Quantity	Molar Concentration in Final Medium
NaNO3 (sodium no3)	75 g/L dH2O	1 mL	8.82 x10-4M
NaH2PO4 H2O (sodium po4)	5 g/L dH2O	1 mL	3.62 x 10-5 M
Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate)	30 g/L dH2O	1 mL	1.06 x 10-4 M
Trace Metal Solution	See table 2	1 mL	---
Vitamin Solution	See Table 3	0.5 mL	---

With me using pure sodium nitrate pellets as my fertilizer to cultivate phyto in a container, it removes sodium phosphate right out of the equation... SO IT DOESNT END UP IN MY TANK driving my po4 #s to 0.5, 0 6, 0 7 and so on.

 

[Aqua Man]

You cannot directly compare a list of ingredients to a chemical analysis.

Isn’t the “stuff” listed above for the phyto it’s chemical analysis?

I have a bag of spirulina, the bag says 100% phyto, nothing added, organic ect…
Very close to the same analysis make up of the phyto above.

Are saying that all those chemicals are being added and are not part of the actual makeup of the phytoplankton?!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Isn’t the “stuff” listed above for the phyto it’s chemical analysis?

I have a bag of spirulina, the bag says 100% phyto, nothing added, organic ect…
Very close to the same analysis make up of the phyto above.

Are saying that all those chemicals are being added and are not part of the actual makeup of the phytoplankton?!

The phyto is a chemical analysis. The ingredient list for the fish food is not.

If the fish food ingredient list just said "shrimp", it would contain nearly every (maybe every) component listed for the phyto. Shrimp might sound less nutritious than the chemical analysis for phyto, but one would need to look at the same analysis on both things to usefully compare them.

 

[Aqua Man]

The phyto is a chemical analysis. The ingredient list for the fish food is not.

If the fish food ingredient list just said "shrimp", it would contain nearly every (maybe every) component listed for the phyto. Shrimp might sound less nutritious than the chemical analysis for phyto, but one would need to look at the same analysis on both things to usefully compare them.

Thank you! Terminology is important, ingredients is not the same as a chemical analysis.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

Furthermore on the Gillard f/2 formula:

Components	Stock Solution	Quantity	Molar Concentration in Final Medium
NaNO3 (sodium no3)	75 g/L dH2O	1 mL	8.82 x10-4M
NaH2PO4 H2O (sodium po4)	5 g/L dH2O	1 mL	3.62 x 10-5 M
Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate)	30 g/L dH2O	1 mL	1.06 x 10-4 M
Trace Metal Solution	See table 2	1 mL	---
Vitamin Solution	See Table 3	0.5 mL	---

With me using pure sodium nitrate pellets as my fertilizer to cultivate phyto in a container, it removes sodium phosphate right out of the equation... SO IT DOESNT END UP IN MY TANK driving my po4 #s to 0.5, 0 6, 0 7 and so on.

I saw sodium nitrate pellets on Amazon. How much sodium nitrate do you add to a phyto culture?

 

[fryman]

Furthermore on the Gillard f/2 formula:

Components	Stock Solution	Quantity	Molar Concentration in Final Medium
NaNO3 (sodium no3)	75 g/L dH2O	1 mL	8.82 x10-4M
NaH2PO4 H2O (sodium po4)	5 g/L dH2O	1 mL	3.62 x 10-5 M
Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate)	30 g/L dH2O	1 mL	1.06 x 10-4 M
Trace Metal Solution	See table 2	1 mL	---
Vitamin Solution	See Table 3	0.5 mL	---

With me using pure sodium nitrate pellets as my fertilizer to cultivate phyto in a container, it removes sodium phosphate right out of the equation... SO IT DOESNT END UP IN MY TANK driving my po4 #s to 0.5, 0 6, 0 7 and so on.

Phyto requires phosphate. I have used a centrifuge to seperate tetraselmis culture water and then tested the media. In my cultures, phos bottoms out before nitrate, and was undetectable after ~5 to 8 days while nitrate still measured ~20ppm.

If you just use nitrate I think eventually bacteria will take over the culture, or something else that prefers a high nitrate/low phos environment. So I'm very skeptical using just sodium nitrate is a good idea.

f/2 was developed scientifically and has decades of data to support it. IMHO if you want to make phyto as a feed that is nutritious for your livestock, use f/2.