The DOs and DON’Ts of Quarantine

Humblefish · Jun 17, 2015

samba_dad said:
This should be a sticky - very good advice he. Thanks for putting it together.

Done

ftherrmann · Jun 17, 2015

3FordFamily said:
2 weeks is technically all that's necessary assuming you're properly treating all fish as if they have ich. However, 4 weeks gives you a much smaller margin of error, and more time to get the fish feeding before dt. In my case, releasing a fish that wasn't treated as if it had ich and flukes (cupramine and prazipro) in to my dt's puts thousands of dollars of fish at risk, causes so much time and stress involved in catching them, the expenses and frustrating of running the dt fallow (my recent experience with this has cost me 75/week in salt and other chemicals during the process for 10 weeks), and of course running fallow 72 days sucks.

Because a fish doesn't show symptoms of ich does NOT mean it does not have it. Even after 4 weeks of being monitored. This is a lesson many learn the hard way, myself included.

I would rather treat all incoming fish than risk the above.

I feel your pain. I also learned via the school of hard knocks. Smaller tank and inexpensive fish in my case. Regardless of expense it was still a pain. I left the tank fish-fallow for 6 weeks and re-introduced two tangs after 6 weeks which arrived with ich and were therapeutically treated with Rid-Ich for 5 days.

I don't understand your experience. The life cycle of ich, as best I know, does not include a dormant stage where the parasite remains unseen under the skin of the fish or systemically hidden within the fish for any great length of time at tropic temperatures.

Here's some info from what appears to be a reliable source:

"The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish."

(Link: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196)

"Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. "

"After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. "

Assuming that the noninfectious stage is dependent on water temperature I would reason that a temperature between 78-82F would produce free swimming tomites within a week tops.

In other words: The dormant non-attached fish stage is totally dependent on temperature. I would also like to disagree with the quoted statement above: "the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host." I don't believe the parasite cyst has a choice as to when it develops into a free swimming theront, since I believe it's cycle is based on temperature. While it's nice to give the parasite anthropomorphic traits I doubt the parasite is capable of looking out of its cyst and making a decision to hatch based on the presence of a fish. If this were true the fish-fallow approach to getting rid of ich wouldn't work.

Personally I'd rather not treat for ich, at any dose, unless the fish shows obvious signs of the parasite. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

ftherrmann · Jun 17, 2015

Humblefish said:
If a fish has been exposed to a non-therapeutic level of copper somewhere along the way, that can mask symptoms of velvet (and possibly even ich.) In that scenario, it can take up to 4 weeks for symptoms to show. Even if your LFS doesn't use copper, there is the wholesaler, collector, etc. to consider.

This statement doesn't agree with what appears to be accepted treatment of ich. I've never read anything or seen any evidence that using copper or formalin below therapeutic levels slows down the parasite. You either kill the parasite or you don't.

Humblefish · Jun 17, 2015

ftherrmann said:
This statement doesn't agree with what appears to be accepted treatment of ich. I've never read anything or seen any evidence that using copper or formalin below therapeutic levels slows down the parasite. You either kill the parasite or you don't.

From a reliable source

: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2355220

It is more of a concern with velvet.

4FordFamily · Jun 17, 2015

ftherrmann said:
I feel your pain. I also learned via the school of hard knocks. Smaller tank and inexpensive fish in my case. Regardless of expense it was still a pain. I left the tank fish-fallow for 6 weeks and re-introduced two tangs after 6 weeks which arrived with ich and were therapeutically treated with Rid-Ich for 5 days.

I don't understand your experience. The life cycle of ich, as best I know, does not include a dormant stage where the parasite remains unseen under the skin of the fish or systemically hidden within the fish for any great length of time at tropic temperatures.

Here's some info from what appears to be a reliable source:

"The trophont will spend three to seven days (depending on temperature) feeding on the fish."

(Link: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1992196)

"Division inside the cyst into hundreds of daughter parasites, called tomites, begins shortly thereafter. This noninfectious stage can last anywhere from three to twenty-eight days. During this extended period, the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host. "

"After this period, the tomites hatch and begin swimming around, looking for a fish host. At this point, they are called theronts, and they must find a host within twenty-four hours or die. "

Assuming that the noninfectious stage is dependent on water temperature I would reason that a temperature between 78-82F would produce free swimming tomites within a week tops.

In other words: The dormant non-attached fish stage is totally dependent on temperature. I would also like to disagree with the quoted statement above: "the parasite cyst is lying in wait for a host." I don't believe the parasite cyst has a choice as to when it develops into a free swimming theront, since I believe it's cycle is based on temperature. While it's nice to give the parasite anthropomorphic traits I doubt the parasite is capable of looking out of its cyst and making a decision to hatch based on the presence of a fish. If this were true the fish-fallow approach to getting rid of ich wouldn't work.

Personally I'd rather not treat for ich, at any dose, unless the fish shows obvious signs of the parasite. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

You're missing the reason that ich can hide. I'm not contending that any of what you said above is incorrect, but consider the path of least resistance for the parasite- the gills. The fish may have ich for 4 weeks that is out of sight (most likely in the gills)

A few months ago I had a strain of velvet that showed zero outward symptoms to identify it with. It only targeted places out of sight. I've had velvet before, been in the hobby 12 years or so, and worked at an lfs in the past, so this isn't my first rodeo. One day my angels were happy and eating. The next lethargic, the following day dead. Little if any discernible film on them (no different than when you find a dead fish that lost color). Finally, I added a chevron tang thinking it was just Angels I was struggling with and the poor guy showed minor classic symptoms. This strain killed an established hippo without any identifiable symptoms other than cryptic behavior and also a mag foxface.

My point is that parasites apparently can actively target certain areas of a fish. That hippo lived for well over two months with velvet unbeknownst to me. I lost angels for a 3 month period while fixing something each time sure I found the culprit (flukes for example). Hippo survived two months.

How would you like to add velvet to your tank? It was ugly! That hippo had ich resistance that may have helped it live that long and although rare, it can obviously be done. Other than occasional scratching (ich was in the system too but no one showed symptoms at least not the resident fish only some new additions- I managed ich moderately successfully for years), my wrasses and squirrelfish were completely unaffected. Banana wrasse, red coris wrasse, lime green wrasse, and cleaner wrasse and that squirrelfish are all alive to this day.

ftherrmann · Jun 17, 2015

Humblefish said:
From a reliable source : http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2355220

It is more of a concern with velvet.

I just read the thread and like many other internet sources there are a lot of "I thinks" based on anecdotal experience. I also did a search for low level copper marine velvet and basically saw the same thing over and over. That being that sub therapeutic levels of copper and other chemicals don't work. A google search of "does low copper mask marine velvet" produced results which all went to the same speculative thread.

The life cycle of velvet is similar to ich, with the possible exception that it's shorter given the same temperature. Personally I don't buy the LFS copper treatment conspiracy theory. I did find an article from the University of Florida: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

This paper states: "Chronic copper exposure will also adversely affect fish health. Sublethal and toxic levels of copper damage gills and other tissues of fish, and also are known to depress the immune system."

Bottom line is: Do what you feel is best and/or makes you feel better. Until I see some solid evidence I'm going to stick with the 3 week wait and watch QT approach.

4FordFamily · Jun 17, 2015

ftherrmann said:
I just read the thread and like many other internet sources there are a lot of "I thinks" based on anecdotal experience. I also did a search for low level copper marine velvet and basically saw the same thing over and over. That being that sub therapeutic levels of copper and other chemicals don't work. A google search of "does low copper mask marine velvet" produced results which all went to the same speculative thread.

The life cycle of velvet is similar to ich, with the possible exception that it's shorter given the same temperature. Personally I don't buy the LFS copper treatment conspiracy theory. I did find an article from the University of Florida: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa165

This paper states: "Chronic copper exposure will also adversely affect fish health. Sublethal and toxic levels of copper damage gills and other tissues of fish, and also are known to depress the immune system."

Bottom line is: Do what you feel is best and/or makes you feel better. Until I see some solid evidence I'm going to stick with the 3 week wait and watch QT approach.

I would still rather risk the life of a single or a few fish going through qt and cupramine than risk the stress and deaths of thousands of dollars of fish in my display tanks...

I don't know if you saw my thread on cupramine and fish, but I have had several fish in cupramine (.5-.7 levels) for over 7 weeks with few losses (IME only wrasses are relevant and perhaps due to cupramine, read on). Zero angelfish losses related to cupramine, and between the various tanks I am treating there are many, but here is a list of the fish that are still kicking:

2x flame angel
Red Sea regal angel
Emperor angel
Queen angel
Blue face angel
Passer/king angel
Potters angel
Rock beauty angel
Moorish idol
2x Achilles tang
2x powder blue tang
2x chevron tang
Sohal tang
Powder brown tang
Purple tang
Desjardini Sailfin tang
Yellow tang
Yellow belly hippo tang
Magnificent foxface
Copperband butterfly
2x male Bipartus leopard wrasse
2x cleaner wrasse
Banana wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Lime green wrasse
Peppermint squirrel fish
Bicolor blenny
Yellow watchman goby
Diamond sand sifting goby
Flame hawkfish

I think thats all

Fish lost (perhaps from cupramine perhaps not):
Melanarus wrasse
Christmas wrasse
Male kuiters leopard wrasse
Sohal tang
3 powder blue tangs (arrived with sunken stomachs and spine showing, cupramine was not the issue the two I bought after are fine)
One flame angel that arrived in bad shape to begin with (misshapen)

7 weeks. Higher than recommended levels of cupramine. I would say that it's safe to say that some wrasse are sensitive, but given this small sample size I would say angel sensitivity to cupramine is largely debunked...

It will be removed in a couple weeks. I'm not claiming victory yet but the results are already surprising

Humblefish · Jun 17, 2015

@ftherrmann I'll have to look on Google Scholar to see if any studies have been done; however "anecdotal experience" from Steve Norvich and some of the other highly regarded people on that thread are enough for me to take heed. But at the end of the day they are your fish, so you can QT them for as long as you like.

Btw, the life cycle of velvet is in some ways very different from ich. For example, ich free swimmers aka theronts are only infective for up to 48 hours - with 6-8 hrs being when they are most active/infective. However, velvet "free swimmers" aka dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days. This is because velvet is actually a single celled dinoflagellate and not a complex ciliated, protozoan parasite like ich. And being it is a dinoflagellate , it can use photosynthesis as a means of obtaining nutrients - and thus survive longer without a suitable host to feed on.

This is a good read on marine velvet disease: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

ftherrmann · Jun 18, 2015

Humblefish said:
@ftherrmann I'll have to look on Google Scholar to see if any studies have been done; however "anecdotal experience" from Steve Norvich and some of the other highly regarded people on that thread are enough for me to take heed. But at the end of the day they are your fish, so you can QT them for as long as you like.

Btw, the life cycle of velvet is in some ways very different from ich. For example, ich free swimmers aka theronts are only infective for up to 48 hours - with 6-8 hrs being when they are most active/infective. However, velvet "free swimmers" aka dinospores can remain infective for up to 15 days. This is because velvet is actually a single celled dinoflagellate and not a complex ciliated, protozoan parasite like ich. And being it is a dinoflagellate , it can use photosynthesis as a means of obtaining nutrients - and thus survive longer without a suitable host to feed on.

This is a good read on marine velvet disease: http://www.ultimatereef.com/articles/marinevelvet/

Already read that article. It's good. Also read another that stated that the velvet parasite is a hybrid between animal and plant given that it hosts algae for photosynthesis. Lots of cleaver bugs out there!

dragonfish · Jun 19, 2015

following just lost my all QA tank for ich

Reflective · Jun 22, 2015

Humblefish said:
DO float & release your new fish; DON’T drip acclimate if you can help it. One of the advantages of QT is you can set the specific gravity (SG) to match the bag water. This can usually be determined beforehand by asking the online vendor or local fish shop (LFS) what SG they keep their fish in. Knowing this, you can just float the fish for 20-30 minutes, to slowly bring the temperature of the bag’s water to match that of the receiving tank. Once that is done, open the bag and double check the SG. So long as the SG is within .001 (up or down) of the receiving tank, you can release the fish without further acclimation. If the SG in the bag is lower than the QT, you can quickly lower the SG of a QT by replacing some saltwater with freshwater. If the SG in the bag is much higher than that in the QT, then you are forced to drip acclimate. When doing drip acclimation use an ammonia reducer (ex: Amquel or Prime) if a fish has been in transit for more than a couple of hours.

So I vaguely remember reading stuff about needing to match pH too. Is that something you check as well before deciding to do float & release?

Daytonareefing · Jun 22, 2015

I use a QT for 6 weeks I found out the hard way with flatworms worms they can hide for around 6 weeks then popup out of know where and it took many months with salifert flatworm exit and double dosing it to finally kill them all. It was the worst thing I had in all the years I had saltwater tanks and everyone thought one dose and its all better. Not for me.

Humblefish · Jun 22, 2015

Reflective said:
So I vaguely remember reading stuff about needing to match pH too. Is that something you check as well before deciding to do float & release?

IME; fish are not overly sensitive to fluctuations in pH. Unless it's <7.5 for a sustained period of time. That usually only happens when doing hyposalinity treatment, or sometimes in the winter if the house has been closed up for awhile.

4FordFamily · Jun 22, 2015

I add Araga milk to water during mixing prior to any water change. Seems to help. Not sure for certain I don't test

ftherrmann · Jul 9, 2015

3FordFamily said:
2 weeks is technically all that's necessary assuming you're properly treating all fish as if they have ich. However, 4 weeks gives you a much smaller margin of error, and more time to get the fish feeding before dt. In my case, releasing a fish that wasn't treated as if it had ich and flukes (cupramine and prazipro) in to my dt's puts thousands of dollars of fish at risk, causes so much time and stress involved in catching them, the expenses and frustrating of running the dt fallow (my recent experience with this has cost me 75/week in salt and other chemicals during the process for 10 weeks), and of course running fallow 72 days sucks.

Because a fish doesn't show symptoms of ich does NOT mean it does not have it. Even after 4 weeks of being monitored. This is a lesson many learn the hard way, myself included.

I would rather treat all incoming fish than risk the above.

I changed my mind and totally agree with a malachite green/formalin treatment in the QT after acclimation/arrival. I dosed 1/4 the first night, 1/2 the following morning and 1/2 the following night followed by 6 days of full therapeutic dosing. No signs of Ich at any time and I'm day 8 now with no treatment. If everyone looks well in another 2 weeks I'm putting them in the DT.

Only had one fatality with a yellow tail damsel that looked like it had some sort of mouth problem. The African Wrasse also dumped a load of what appeared to be internal parasites after the first dose of Rid-Ich. Although RidIch isn't prescribed for internal parasites it appears to have an effect on them. Who says worms are not invertebrates? From what I've seen now not using a QT is like playing Russian roulette with 5/6 chambers loaded. I also don't see the point of wait and see since there seems to be an epidemic of ich.

Humblefish · Jul 9, 2015

@ftherrmann Have any of the fish you prophylactically treated with formalin lived past 2 years? There is some anecdotal evidence that fish treated with formalin have a shortened life expectancy - presumably because formalin is a known carcinogen.

ftherrmann · Jul 10, 2015

"Anecdotal"... Key word. I dissected cats/pigs/frogs for months at a time that were pickled in formaldehyde when I was in school 40 years ago. As far as I'm concerned 2 years beats less than two weeks when the fish is coated in ich. Once it's covered from head to tail putting it in copper/formalin will only kill it within 24 hours.

I also remember being dragged into the fabric store with my mother when I was a kid. My eyes watered and nose ran because of all the formaldehyde in the dyed cloth. I wonder how those ladies fared after working in the store for years? Don't forget the flooring trade. Plenty of formaldehyde in wood floors. I also love those "Has been shown to cause cancer in California" labels. Luckily I don't live in Calif.

I hope/think I got a good dose of my father/grandfathers genes. They smoked like chimneys, drank, bathed in asbestos and lived into their late 80's and early 90's. Genetics, environment, attitude are all important factors when it comes to longevity. Regardless if your a fish or person.