The Ecotech pump clones have arrived in Ali Express !!!

[Shooter6]

I'm not sure if it was verbiage, a picture, or my clouded mind, but I believe the dryside does not have suction cups....simply move that side around to align.

As far as wear on the bearings, and I've given this a fair amount of thought having replaced many wetside bearings, is a design flaw....or a purposely designed flaw. The forces on the motor are unidirectional in line with the shaft and directed to ball bearings. Note, ball bearings. It's not just spinning round and round, it's also being "pulled" towards the wetside. A better fit would have been needle bearings, or better yet, tapered needle bearings. Not sure if they make them that small, and if not, for what you're paying, have them custom made.

From pictures posted and written here both sides have suction cups.

I don't have them yet so I cannot verify. I believe at least the dry side has the suction cups.

 

[rtparty]

You do realize these HAVE the magnets PLUS SUCTION CUPS?

Have you ever aligned a Vortech? You have to twist and turn the wet side to get proper alignment. The suction cups are going to inhibit that and the magnetic feeling you get as you align them properly.

 

[Ironwill723]

I may try one of these pumps at some point but I would remove the wetside suction cups and cut some self adhesive neoprene to put in their place.

Neoprene With Adhesive Backing

Our Neoprene with Adhesive Backing has thermal and moisture insulation. It can be used for motorcycle or boat seats or exercise equipment. It's resistant to Acid, Alkalis, Oxidation, and Ozone elements. It is also static-free.

foamforyou.com

 

[BeanAnimal]

You do realize these HAVE the magnets PLUS SUCTION CUPS?

Out of this entire 38 page of conversation, your take is that I don't understand that these are magnetically driven?

 

[shookONES]

I think people are so passionate about this because they’re coming to grips with the reality of Ecotech being insanely overpriced.

I remember when Jebao first came on the scene about a decade ago. I read pages and pages of warnings and cautionary tales. They were priced cheap enough where I bought multiples (return pumps and powerheads). Wouldn’t you know…I still have brand new units in a box. They’ve proven more reliable than their counterparts at a fraction of the cost.

My mantra for life is “take my money, don’t steal it”. With the cost of MP, I feel like I’m getting robbed

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'm not sure if it was verbiage, a picture, or my clouded mind, but I believe the dryside does not have suction cups....simply move that side around to align.

I think indications are that both sides have suction cups and that maybe one side can be removed?

As far as wear on the bearings, and I've given this a fair amount of thought having replaced many wetside bearings, is a design flaw....or a purposely designed flaw.

In many spaces (from airplane parts to consumer goods) a design is built refined under certain criteria (say strength and weight and cost and lifespan). If a part is designed to last forever, it may be cost prohibitive to produce, weigh too much etc. In the same fashion the process can be used to design parts that must be replaced as a profit center. In this case, I highly doubt that there was any planned obsolescence in the design. I will touch on why below.

The forces on the motor are unidirectional in line with the shaft and directed to ball bearings.

There is a significant force "pulling" the two halves together. This is thrust force (or axial) force that is parallel to the rotating shaft.

There is also radio load that is the force pushing sideways against the bearing. In the case of this design, most of that radial load is due to misalignment, rotating mass that is not perfectly balanced and rotating mass in a medium (water) that curses random loading.

There various bearing design that are more or less equipped to handle this force, each with tradeoffs (cost, wear, friction, etc.)

A better fit would have been needle bearings, or better yet, tapered needle bearings. Not sure if they make them that small, and if not, for what you're paying, have them custom made.

They certainly do, but cost comes into play very quickly. Bushing (brass, plastic, graphite, ceramic, etc.) are the cheapest and in some cases the lowest maintenance, with many being self lubricating. Once we put "balls" or "needles" or "rollers" into the equation, things get more expensive and/or lubrication becomes another factor, as does noise, vibration etc. Bearing quality is a HUGE impactor and quality bearings can get very expensive.

I would imagine that the design of the vortech is a simple compromise between production cost and manufacturing complexity and parts availability. Custom bearings are out of the question and "cheap" and "easy to get and fit" are almost certainly the driving force.

 

[BeanAnimal]

All it would need is a thrust bearing at the end of the stack. It would handle the pressures and most likely keep the stack straight.

Either of these would work. (as long as they handle the rpm)

There are numerous bearing and shaft configurations that would increase durability. The issue becomes added cost and design complexity on both sides of the glass.

From what I gather, most of the failures are wet side shafts and not thrust related. Dry side failures are likely cases where there is significant offset and the the axial load is not parallel to the shaft, but at an angle putting an off axis load on the bearing and beating the snot out of two the two opposing side.

Basically trying to do this to the bearing

 

[VintageReefer]

I’ve had these pumps for 10+ years and I never had a dry side issue.

I don’t know what happened but my wetside somehow took in water. It became noisy and I just dealt with it until it could not be dealt with. I disassembled and found the casing bulging. I broke it apart and found the disk magnet swelled, rusted, and balance was thrown off. It was internally destroyed. The disk magnet also has tons of near perfect circular grooves carved into it. I guess spinning, out of alignment, and rubbing against some type of spike or protrusion

 

[rtparty]

Out of this entire 38 page of conversation, your take is that I don't understand that these are magnetically driven?

 

[BeanAnimal]

Okay - I admit, I wasn't sure how suction cups could work through the glass and thought maybe there were mini Grogu's projecting force to little shiny orbs on the other side...

 

[areefer01]

MP10 - 380$
MP10 wetside - 75$
Dmp-10 - 80$

If it breaks or needs a new wetside in a year or two someone can just replace it for 80$ and still be ahead

True. Then again you could pull a Boeing and be left stranded on the international space station...

I get your point and this obviously isn't apples to apples but when we look at our overall reefing budget some things are mission critical, life supporting. Note I am not being brand specific. Just my thought as I read the if it breaks replace it bit.

Hope your day is well.

 

[Dysprosium]

Late to this conversation, but I have a bunch of patents over my career, and I've learned something about the patent world from that. There seems to be a big issue many are missing.

Ecotech doesn't have a patent in China, so there is no infringement.

Now, they did file a WIPO patent (aka World), which does cover China, but that patent was not granted, it's stuck at the application phase and Ecotech either didn't move it forward, or didn't get it granted.

Currently, Jeboa has every right in the world to make and sell a knock off in any country that there is not a valid patent in force. Currently that is Europe, Canada and the USA. Anywhere outside of these areas, like China, Japan, Australia, Korea etc.. it is completely legal to make and sell.

 

[cdnco2004]

From pictures posted and written here both sides have suction cups.

I don't have them yet so I cannot verify. I believe at least the dry side has the suction cups.

I don't see how suction cups can work for this design of pumps. As far as I knew this design transfers the power via magnetic and suction cups would interfere in that.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Ecotech doesn't have a patent in China, so there is no infringement....


Currently, Jeboa has every right in the world to make and sell a knock off in any country that there is not a valid patent in force.

...Currently that is Europe, Canada and the USA. Anywhere outside of these areas, like China, Japan, Australia, Korea etc.. it is completely legal to make and sell.

Call me geographically ignorant, but are we talking about the same Europe, Canada and USA that they are exporting these products directly to?

Or are we talking about the USA, Europe and Canada where birds aren't real and the north pole is at the center of the map and the patent is no sovereignly recognized?

 

[cdnco2004]

I think people are so passionate about this because they’re coming to grips with the reality of Ecotech being insanely overpriced.

I remember when Jebao first came on the scene about a decade ago. I read pages and pages of warnings and cautionary tales. They were priced cheap enough where I bought multiples (return pumps and powerheads). Wouldn’t you know…I still have brand new units in a box. They’ve proven more reliable than their counterparts at a fraction of the cost.

My mantra for life is “take my money, don’t steal it”. With the cost of MP, I feel like I’m getting robbed

I am right there with you. I started with expensive echotech returns and powerhead/wavemakers. Now I mostly use Jebao except on my 220 but that is because I use Hydros WaveEngine as a controller for the wavemakers. All the other tanks are Jebao returns and wavemakers. They out lasted my Echotech pumps.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't see how suction cups can work for this design of pumps. As far as I knew this design transfers the power via magnetic energy and suction cups would interfere in that.

You mean like the glass and plastic do on the original design?

Magnets are strange things.. or do they even exist?

 

[Dysprosium]

Call me geographically ignorant, but are we talking about the same Europe, Canada and USA that they are exporting these products directly to?

Or are we talking about the USA, Europe and Canada where birds aren't real and the north pole is at the center of the map and the patent is no sovereignly recognized?

They aren't exporting them to countries or regions covered by valid patents.

Ali Express is functionally the same as buying in China and having it shipped to the USA, the sale isn't in the USA.

It's a bit cheeky, but they aren't importing it to the USA, the customer is having an item they purchased shipped to them.

Now, Ecotech could probably stop that import if they had a way, or they could take action against Ali Express for inducing patent infringment in the USA, but Jeboa can make a clone for sale in China, and sell it outside of the USA, Europe and Canada. Good luck enforcing a non-Chinese patent on a Chinese company in China.

Also, the base patent of Ecotech expires in 2026, so that's when Jeboa will start selling them on Amazon most likely, this is just a precursor to that. Lots of countries use the US-style electric plug that aren't covered by these patents, for example, Mexico, it would be 100% legal to buy this on Ali Express and shipt o Mexico, zero patent conflicts.

 

[cdnco2004]

They aren't exporting them to countries or regions covered by valid patents.

It's a bit cheeky, but they aren't importing it to the USA, the customer is having an item they purchased shipped to them.

Correct pretty much anything purchased on AliExpress is shipped direct from warehouses in China to the end customer. It does not go through a commercial import process to a domestic reseller.

 

[areefer01]

Late to this conversation

A little bit.

Ecotech doesn't have a patent in China, so there is no infringement.

This was already brought up. That and they don't really care - which is obvious.

 

[Tamberav]

WAIT, are you saying America's laws don't apply to the entire world?