The Goods and Bad of freshwater LR Cleaning

[sixty_reefer]

This thread is aimed at informing members of this community the effects that you could experience and expect after you clean your tank and contents including live rock, by using fresh water as a method of choice.

to create some context on the following information a small test was created to evaluate the impact of a freshwater clean on a small tank using a 2 year old mature live rock as a guide.

for the test:

5 gallon aquarium
Heater
Air bubbler for flow
Dr. Tim’s ammonia
JBL pro test kit
5w white led 24/7 on
2 year old mature live rock 3.7lbs full of life
4 gallon tank water
Tap water for the submerged test and tank cleaning at tank temperature.

test 1.

the first test goal was to try and figure out the filtration of ammonia in 24 hours cycle by the live rock and surfaces of the aquarium (Glass) using a concentration of 4.4ppm ammonia

the results in 24 hours show that there was 0.2ppm of ammonia that the hole system didn’t filter resulting in a total consumption of 4.2ppm for this particular test system.

test 2.

this test consisted in cleaning all the aquarium surfaces and in addition submerge and brush the live rock in fresh water for a period of approximately 8 minutes. The main goal with this test was to see what would be the decrease in ammonia filtration from cleaning a salt water aquarium and live rock in fresh water.

test 2 results shown:

In a 24 hours period. post cleaning a 55% reduction in the hole system off ammonia filtration was observed with a recovery to almost 100% by day 3. In addition the water had a milky colour 8 hours and clearing by the end of the day

conclusion of test 2:

It’s believed that most of the bacteria was removed from the tank surface and the live rock surface with brushing and deep cleaning. My personal view was that fresh water didn’t affect the reduction.




Test 3:

Testing if fresh water would reduce filtration in the live rock, for this test I’ve chosen to do a re submerge the rock in freshwater for the same period as test 2 and placed it back without brushing for 24 hours

Conclusion:
I couldn’t observe any decrease in ammonia filtration during the next 24 hours, meaning that in my view a 8 minute submerge of live rock alone in fresh water won’t reduce ammonia filtration.


side notes:

In test 2 I’ve observed that after submerging the live rock in fresh water, most if not all the micro fauna in the live rock did in fact perish, in result a live rock full of small critters become the same as a dry live dry rock lacking biodiversity.
I must add that once the critters died a small patch of cyano bacteria started to dominate the aquascape by the end of day 4.

conclusion:

there is no conclusion from my behalf, this is something that should be taken by each individual, you should consider your path there’s no right way or wrong way to do this in my personal view.
It’s all a matter of choice, would you prefer to keep your biodiversity that’s been accumulated over the years on top of getting rid of a pest algae or other reasons you may have to take your rock under fresh water.

there is further work coming soon based on nitrifying bacteria alone and fresh water by @Coxey81 hope you all read it soon.

pictures representing how the test ended.

 

[Garf]

This thread is aimed at informing members of this community the effects that you could experience and expect after you clean your tank and contents including live rock, by using fresh water as a method of choice.

to create some context on the following information a small test was created to evaluate the impact of a freshwater clean on a small tank using a 2 year old mature live rock as a guide.

for the test:

5 gallon aquarium
Heater
Air bubbler for flow
Dr. Tim’s ammonia
JBL pro test kit
5w white led 24/7 on
2 year old mature live rock 3.7lbs full of life
4 gallon tank water
Tap water for the submerged test and tank cleaning at tank temperature.

test 1.

the first test goal was to try and figure out the filtration of ammonia in 24 hours cycle by the live rock and surfaces of the aquarium (Glass) using a concentration of 4.4ppm ammonia

the results in 24 hours show that there was 0.2ppm of ammonia that the hole system didn’t filter resulting in a total consumption of 4.2ppm for this particular test system.

test 2.

this test consisted in cleaning all the aquarium surfaces and in addition submerge and brush the live rock in fresh water for a period of approximately 8 minutes. The main goal with this test was to see what would be the decrease in ammonia filtration from cleaning a salt water aquarium and live rock in fresh water.

test 2 results shown:

In a 24 hours period. post cleaning a 45% reduction in the hole system off ammonia filtration was observed with a recovery to almost 100% by day 3. In addition the water had a milky colour 8 hours and clearing by the end of the day

conclusion of test 2:

It’s believed that most of the bacteria was removed from the tank surface and the live rock surface with brushing and deep cleaning. My personal view was that fresh water didn’t affect the reduction.




Test 3:

Testing if fresh water would kill any bacteria in the live rock, for this test I’ve chosen to do a re submerge the rock in freshwater for the same period as test 2 and placed it back without brushing for 24 hours

Conclusion:
I couldn’t observe any decrease in ammonia filtration during the next 24 hours, meaning that in my view a 8 minute submerge of live rock alone in fresh water won’t reduce ammonia filtration.


side notes:

In test 2 I’ve observed that after submerging the live rock in fresh water, most if not all the micro fauna in the live rock did in fact perish, in result a live rock full of small critters become the same as a dry live dry rock lacking biodiversity.
I must add that once the critters died a small patch of cyano bacteria started to dominate the aquascape by the end of day 4.

conclusion:

there is no conclusion from my behalf, this is something that should be taken by each individual, you should consider your path there’s no right way or wrong way to do this in my personal view.
It’s all a matter of choice, would you prefer to keep your biodiversity that’s been accumulated over the years on top of getting rid of a pest algae or other reasons you may have to take your rock under fresh water.

there is further work coming soon based on nitrifying bacteria alone and fresh water by @Coxey81 hope you all read it soon.

pictures representing how the test ended.

I tend to agree, it’s not the freshwater, it’s the aggression of scrubbing.

 

[Garf]

Just in case the others don’t pick this up @brandon429 @Lasse @MnFish1 , lol

 

[sixty_reefer]

Just in case the others don’t pick this up @brandon429 @Lasse @MnFish1 , lol

I think they quite aware of everything by now, besides test 3 were no reduction in ammonia was noticeable

 

[sixty_reefer]

End of day 5 and the hole rock is covered in Cyanobacteria, the 8 minutes submerge in freshwater also failed to kill the Cyanobacteria that is also a bacteria.

Pictures 24hours apart

 

[Garf]

End of day 5 and the hole rock is covered in Cyanobacteria, the 8 minutes submerge in freshwater also failed to kill the Cyanobacteria that is also a bacteria.

Pictures 24hours apart

It’s certainly messed up the microcosm that the rock had going on, don’t you think? I’ve not seen anyone document this before, excellent

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s certainly messed up the microcosm that the rock had going on, don’t you think? I’ve not seen anyone document this before, excellent

This rock wasn’t to bad in therms of life, some will have much more than me, a standard mature rock will have a high number of life including spiniod worms, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, nudibranch, copepods, amphipods, feather dusters, bristle starfish, asterina starfish, vermitid snails, mussels, bivalves, sponges and many other critters that we can’t see, if they are not safely removed, the fresh water shock will definitely kill most if not all of them. Once you bring all those dead critters back in to the tank, this is one off the possibility’s of what can happen. I would be even more careful if I had a rock like pukani

 

[Garf]

This rock wasn’t to bad in therms of life, some will have much more than me, a standard mature rock will have a high number of life including spiniod worms, bristle worms, spaghetti worms, nudibranch, copepods, amphipods, feather dusters, bristle starfish, asterina starfish, vermitid snails, mussels, bivalves, sponges and many other critters that we can’t see, if they are not safely removed, the fresh water shock will definitely kill most if not all of them. Once you bring all those dead critters back in to the tank, this is one off the possibility’s of what can happen. I would be even more careful if I had a rock like pukani

Dead and dying stuff certainly could be the major cause of cyano but can you measure the phosphates in your tapwater? Checked mine years ago and they were over 1ppm, if memory serves correctly. That’s why I posted my view on Coxeys thread about phosphates. I suppose a good soak could bind some of that to any exposed aragonite, calcium carbonate if scrubbed vigorously enough.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Dead and dying stuff certainly could be the major cause of cyano but can you measure the phosphates in your tapwater? Checked mine years ago and they were over 1ppm, if memory serves correctly. That’s why I posted my view on Coxeys thread about phosphates. I suppose a good soak could bind some of that to any exposed aragonite, calcium carbonate if scrubbed vigorously enough.

I’ve read many threads were authors do associate Cyanobacteria to husbandry (excessive food in the tank) this could give those treads some back up, to we’re it could be starting from, in my case I did observe that the mats of cyano started forming around the areas were the dead amphipods were.

I haven’t tested phosphate but will do it later out of curiosity now.

 

[MnFish1]

Just in case the others don’t pick this up @brandon429 @Lasse @MnFish1 , lol

Tjanks didn’t see this!!

 

[sixty_reefer]

Tjanks didn’t see this!!

@MnFish1, Wend you do your study on nitrifying bacteria, do you think you could add a mimic from test 3? Just to be sure?

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1, Wend you do your study on nitrifying bacteria, do you think you could add a mimic from test 3? Just to be sure?

Explain exactly what you mean

 

[sixty_reefer]

Explain exactly what you mean

Test 3 was a replica of test 2 but with a slight difference I remove the variables of scrubbing the live rock and cleaning the tank.

im test 3 all that wa done was to submerge the live rock in fresh water for the same period as test 2 ( 8 minutes )
If bacteria in the live rock was to be killed by the freshwater I should of seen a reduction on filtration of ammonia in the following 24 hours similar to test 2 were there was a reduction in 55% after cleaning and submerge the live rock.
after test 3 was performed, I’ve seen an increase of filtration compared to the previous day, instead of a decrease This shows to me that the microbes in the live rock not been affected by the fresh water whatsoever.

 

[sixty_reefer]

@AquaBiomics are you aware of any papers or experiments you done, that disprove or approve that a short rinse or dip in freshwater would kill any bacteria responsible for the filtration of the aquarium?

 

[Malcontent]

There are plenty of papers documenting the survival and even growth of nitrifying bacteria within chlorinated tap water distribution systems. Not sure if that's specific enough though...

 

[sixty_reefer]

There are plenty of papers documenting the survival and even growth of nitrifying bacteria within chlorinated tap water distribution systems. Not sure if that's specific enough though...

I think they would bring some context to this thread, even though the nitrifying bacteria would be used to live in fresh water, this tread is partial related to another tread that was trying to prove that nitrifying bacteria from a saltwater system would die if exposed momentarily to chlorinated fresh water.
My argument has been that you can remove some microbes from surfaces due to cleaning and scrubbing the tank (test 2) but not necessarily killing it as test 3 showed me.

 

[Malcontent]

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you that’s really interesting reading.

 

[MnFish1]

I think they would bring some context to this thread, even though the nitrifying bacteria would be used to live in fresh water, this tread is partial related to another tread that was trying to prove that nitrifying bacteria from a saltwater system would die if exposed momentarily to chlorinated fresh water.
My argument has been that you can remove some microbes from surfaces due to cleaning and scrubbing the tank (test 2) but not necessarily killing it as test 3 showed me.

I think I posted a couple papers some days ago on one of the thrwada