The Great SPS Revolt - Fuzzy Stick Troubleshooting

[Pieces of the Ocean]

I'm gonna +1 maybe you just need more time to create a more balanced biome. I struggled with SPS for my first couple of years. Killed a lot. Now, I can't stop the stuff, growing outta the top of the tank. I don't think I changed anything. Tank just need to settle down. Not scientific, but that was my experience.

What he says. Plus add more established LR from other established systems growing acros. And add more fish!

Fish Pee, Coral's Number One Nutrient Supply, Cut by Fishing

Fish urine plays an important role in coral reefs' food chain—but unsustainable fishing can devastate this natural nutrient flow.

www.nationalgeographic.com

 

[mermaid_life]

See! You all immediately notice that while I’m fixated on the number.
Interestingly enough I CAN keep stylo so far. Have a nice rainbow one that seems happy

Then I'm leaning towards wherever you buy your frags from the params are too different for it to survive shipping and param adjustments.

I am not an expert with sps but I definitely saw a correlation on survival based on who I bought from.... I realized there were only a few vendors that I could buy from where my sps would survive. I specifically look for vendors that keep their alk close to mine. Ca and mg or lightning match not as important IME. If I did that, my corals would brown out but then start coloring up in 2 months or so.

I also only temp acclimated and put the frags straight onto where they were going to be permanently living - I even dipped some in coralrx with no issues. When I dripped and moved them slowly up in the tank, they died 100% of the time. *Shrug*

 

[Mrtakeoff53]

I was going to say maybe shipping stress but since you buy local, that’s not it.

Maybe head over to your LFS and ask for a sample of their water. Check it against your parameters and see if you notice any differences.

Lastly, and I know this probably won’t be a popular opinion, but try raising nutrients. With a PO4 of 0.02-0.06, that’s on the low side, IMO. I shoot for 0.05-.012 and nitrates 20-30. I had the same issues for a while. I COULD NOT KEEP SPS ALIVE. They all died, even birdsnest!! My water was too clean. When it dirtied up to those ranges, everything took off!!

Give it a try. The worst that’ll happen is some algae growth. Here are my before and after pics of low nutrients and after I fixed it. It’s a strawberry shortcake acro that was on its last legs and came back!

 

[ninjamyst]

My PO4 is .37. Last week it was .50. My acros love it. I used to loose acros frags left and right cuz of 0 nutrients. I kinda went overboard with dosing NP Plus but my acros loving it right now. I am slowly bringing it down to a target of 0.15. At 0.50, my Walt Disney started to loose the yellow polyps. Since bringing it down to 0.37, the yellow polyps are back.

This photo is from a month or so ago after I dosed PO4 higher.

My purple Stylo also loves higher nutrients.

I target feed my SPS every night 30 mins after lights out with a small amount of benepets and easy SPS.

 

[NexusCriteria]

It’s seems like you’re doing everything right but I have a couple questions and a couple observations.

Are you siphoning the sand or just letting it be?

When I do water changes, I try to vacuum out a small portion of the sand and/or sump but never more than say 1/6 of the sand area at any given time

Have you done an ICP? Something like tin will def cause this.

Yes! I was sort of hoping that something would be obvious, it was normal except for a really high Lithium level, which seems to be overall inert? Water chem experts can scold me I'd be happy to have a reason. Repeat ICP is coming in this week

Have you taken some water to an LFS or another hobbyist to confirm numbers? It seems weird you’re needing to add that much mag. I have a similar size sps tank full of acropora and I almost never have to add beyond water changes and part C.

-it seems like you’re doing a ton of export. Maybe turn the skimmer down and see what happens?

These are both good ideas, I haven't sampled LFS water but they write their alk/ca/mg numbers on their SPS tank, I've also confirmed that they're running like 400-500 PAR over the tanks that I can't seem to foster frags from, so too much light can't be it, right?

-the PAR numbers you have are fine and definitely not in the killing coral in 2 weeks range I don’t trust anyone that says different.

If it were my tank I would pull the bio blocks and change more water. I’m currently at 10g a week and seeing better results than when I did 7g a week.

Bioblocks didn't exist last time I did the whole tank thing, but it seems like the more I read they may be problematic. Am I wrong to think I might nuke my biologic filter if I do that?

 

[NexusCriteria]

My PO4 is .37. Last week it was .50. My acros love it. I used to loose acros frags left and right cuz of 0 nutrients. I kinda went overboard with dosing NP Plus but my acros loving it right now. I am slowly bringing it down to a target of 0.15. At 0.50, my Walt Disney started to loose the yellow polyps. Since bringing it down to 0.37, the yellow polyps are back.

This photo is from a month or so ago after I dosed PO4 higher.

My purple Stylo also loves higher nutrients.

I target feed my SPS every night 30 mins after lights out with a small amount of benepets and easy SPS.

Alright, you prove your points. Super nice corals, the kind of which I used to knoooowwww......

I'll let the phos levels drift up a little, the fish enjoy a good pile o food.

Cannot emphasize how much I appreciate everyone's input

 

[NexusCriteria]

I was looking back and don't have a ton of like Coral-on-Hospice photo sequences, but the coral that made me post this is this green slimer, which was doing great for about 2-3 weeks, and then I noticed it is starting to waste at the base and drop it's color down, as is tradition. I honestly bought it and said to myself if I can't grow a green slimer I'm going to finally join R2R and actually post something. I just noticed it yesterday and pulled it off the crest and put it on a rack, but you can see the happy stylo near it. This coral was NOT dipped on arrival because it came from a source I trust very much

It seems like the general consensus is that I'm dosing too much mag, probably shouldn't fear the LED reaper and could be safe increasing my PAR up to the 300-325 levels, and need both more fish and more time to pass.

Question about the LED jump, safe to do that over say 90 days? Running 70% right now as discussed. Has anybody had trouble with their LPS doing this because the best part of my tank besides my fish are how well the LPS seem to be doing

Thank you all so much, this whole thing would've been easier if I found the copper penny that fell off during the build.

 

[minus9]

You can safely raise your intensity 2-5% each week while observing the corals. I'm not sure where you're getting a 90 day lighting acclimation from, but that is completely unnecessary. Corals shouldn't have an issue adapting to lighting changes over the course of a few weeks. It's when you're changing the light source from T5's to LED's or halides to LED's that you have to watch a little closer. Also, flow and lighting go hand in hand, so as you bring up your lighting, you need to raise/increase the amount of flow as well.

 

[ninjamyst]

My gold torch gets same par as my acros and they don't mind. LPS can take high light if they are acclimated to it

 

[spsick]

I can’t stress enough that your light is not your problem. Unless you are getting some really bad shape corals they are not dying in 2 weeks from having a little bit less PAR. I have a few acro frags in my QT tank getting like 80-100 mmol that have been there for months. Are they thriving? No but they are encrusting and healthy.

All good input from everyone here I’m just hoping others can back me up that this isn’t your silver bullet.

With this type of issue specifically with sps im 100% looking at chemistry. Question everything. Question your refractometer calibration, your temp probe, etc. Check for stray voltage.

 

[Rick5]

You likely won’t do this, but it’s what I’d do (and what I did when I saw this same scenario play out). I’d dump the dry rock and replace it with live rock. I’d also get rid of the Marinepure blocks because they’re an unnecessary variable, I think.

I doubt the lower PAR is the immediate issue.

I also think your phosphate range is probably too low for your dry rock setup.

The extent of your MG depletion is bizarre to me. I wouldn’t be shocked if it sorted itself out if you did the above (based on a hunch - nothing more).

Alternatively, you could wait a few months and hope it’s the bacteria/biome, and allow the tank to develop further, while hoping you don’t end up fighting dinos.

 

[Kodski]

The usual sequence once SPS is added: Looks great for a week, polyp extension, I get excited. Around day 7-9 I notice it starts to pale and worry, usually lowering them doesn't change this, eventually I notice tissue is missing and by day 20 or so it becomes a ghost.

I'm going to jump in on this statement. Why do you lower them once you notice they are stressed? I feel that continuing to move them once they are stressed is creating your issue. SPS are not as fragile as people think. They can adapt to crazy changes if given the time. The problem is when too much changes at once or continues to change. I feel that the best thing to do is to leave the frag alone and give it a chance to adjust. If after a month it continues to be unhappy, THEN move the frag. I honestly believe this to be true not just with SPS but most corals.

Also, I feel that you're being too par shy. You gotta remember some people keep SPS over 500 par. SPS can handle lots of light. But no where do I see any mention of the PAR that the frags have come from. My number one question when buying frags is, what PAR are you keeping them at? This way when I get home, I know where about to place the frag in my tank based upon my PAR map. If you take a frag that's happily growing in 200PAR and place it in 300PAR, yes chances are that you'll cause enough stress to kill it. The same is true in reverse though usually not as severe. If you take a frag that was happy in 300 par and put it under 250 par, after an acclimation period, I'm sure it will continue to be happy and grow. But if you take a frag that was grown under 400PAR and put it under 150 PAR, you're likely going to stress the coral out and kill it that way. With how cautious you are with PAR I have a suspicion that this is part of what's going on. The solution is to know what kind of par the frag is coming from so that you can match your own par and placement as closely as possible. If you can come within 5-10% of what it previously was growing under, the coral shouldn't see much if any stress of change in light. Only, the stress due to travel. When buying from a LFS, I find no need to "acclimate" my frags to my lighting, again, as long as I know I'm placing it in about the same par it was growing in at the store.

 

[NexusCriteria]

p

I'm going to jump in on this statement. Why do you lower them once you notice they are stressed? I feel that continuing to move them once they are stressed is creating your issue. SPS are not as fragile as people think. They can adapt to crazy changes if given the time. The problem is when too much changes at once or continues to change. I feel that the best thing to do is to leave the frag alone and give it a chance to adjust. If after a month it continues to be unhappy, THEN move the frag. I honestly believe this to be true not just with SPS but most corals.

Also, I feel that you're being too par shy. You gotta remember some people keep SPS over 500 par. SPS can handle lots of light. But no where do I see any mention of the PAR that the frags have come from. My number one question when buying frags is, what PAR are you keeping them at? This way when I get home, I know where about to place the frag in my tank based upon my PAR map. If you take a frag that's happily growing in 200PAR and place it in 300PAR, yes chances are that you'll cause enough stress to kill it. The same is true in reverse though usually not as severe. If you take a frag that was happy in 300 par and put it under 250 par, after an acclimation period, I'm sure it will continue to be happy and grow. But if you take a frag that was grown under 400PAR and put it under 150 PAR, you're likely going to stress the coral out and kill it that way. With how cautious you are with PAR I have a suspicion that this is part of what's going on. The solution is to know what kind of par the frag is coming from so that you can match your own par and placement as closely as possible. If you can come within 5-10% of what it previously was growing under, the coral shouldn't see much if any stress of change in light. Only, the stress due to travel. When buying from a LFS, I find no need to "acclimate" my frags to my lighting, again, as long as I know I'm placing it in about the same par it was growing in at the store.

Good points to all!


Specifically with the above, I know that a majority of the frags I've attempted come from 350-400ish PAR during peak times at the store. Some even probably higher than that. I tried at one point to just dump them at the top of my reef but they all seemed to bleach out in the usual fashion so I think that's why I got so gunshy and hoped that if I had adjusted them down they could recover some pigment.

Thinking through this, I assumed it was something either chemistry or just something I wasn't understanding about my lights, but it made no sense that frags that got "acclimated" would whiten out, and frags that went right into the peak light area would do the same. Safe to say that means it probably isn't the lights being too strong. I think I got too deep in the weeds and started to worry about spectrum or just not fully understanding the potency of LEDs.

I think in the short term I'm going to start adding some live rock to the sump, next gradually increase my PAR levels over a few weeks, and finally see if gradually bumping phos and nitrate levels can get this thing back on track. I try to only adjust one knob at a time, but thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Does anybody feel strongly that adding another bacterial product that isn't a Dr. Tim's base would be of immediate benefit? Just thinking out loud

 

[ScottB]

When I do water changes, I try to vacuum out a small portion of the sand and/or sump but never more than say 1/6 of the sand area at any given time


Yes! I was sort of hoping that something would be obvious, it was normal except for a really high Lithium level, which seems to be overall inert? Water chem experts can scold me I'd be happy to have a reason. Repeat ICP is coming in this week



These are both good ideas, I haven't sampled LFS water but they write their alk/ca/mg numbers on their SPS tank, I've also confirmed that they're running like 400-500 PAR over the tanks that I can't seem to foster frags from, so too much light can't be it, right?



Bioblocks didn't exist last time I did the whole tank thing, but it seems like the more I read they may be problematic. Am I wrong to think I might nuke my biologic filter if I do that?

High lithium is a nothing burger. Ceramic blocks are sometimes too effective at processing nitrates. Nitrates are easy to measure. Phosphates are a bit precious at lower levels. Below .1 my sticks can get finicky.

 

[ScottB]

p



Good points to all!


Specifically with the above, I know that a majority of the frags I've attempted come from 350-400ish PAR during peak times at the store. Some even probably higher than that. I tried at one point to just dump them at the top of my reef but they all seemed to bleach out in the usual fashion so I think that's why I got so gunshy and hoped that if I had adjusted them down they could recover some pigment.

Thinking through this, I assumed it was something either chemistry or just something I wasn't understanding about my lights, but it made no sense that frags that got "acclimated" would whiten out, and frags that went right into the peak light area would do the same. Safe to say that means it probably isn't the lights being too strong. I think I got too deep in the weeds and started to worry about spectrum or just not fully understanding the potency of LEDs.

I think in the short term I'm going to start adding some live rock to the sump, next gradually increase my PAR levels over a few weeks, and finally see if gradually bumping phos and nitrate levels can get this thing back on track. I try to only adjust one knob at a time, but thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Does anybody feel strongly that adding another bacterial product that isn't a Dr. Tim's base would be of immediate benefit? Just thinking out loud

Adding diversity is important but not an over night cure.

 

[Dburr1014]

I noted on Magnesium early on in the thread and read all the comments.
Nothing has stood out but chemistry and light par. Par, probably not going to do them all in.
Chemistry, maybe.
But let's think outside the box.
Have you checked for stray voltage?
What is around the tank? Is there a canopy? Does anyone like to spray aerosols in the room? Have a cat? Does it pee in the tank? (don't laugh, I've read that before).
Anything at all can you think of?

 

[NexusCriteria]

I noted on Magnesium early on in the thread and read all the comments.
Nothing has stood out but chemistry and light par. Par, probably not going to do them all in.
Chemistry, maybe.
But let's think outside the box.
Have you checked for stray voltage?
What is around the tank? Is there a canopy? Does anyone like to spray aerosols in the room? Have a cat? Does it pee in the tank? (don't laugh, I've read that before).
Anything at all can you think of?

Dburr, you actually just got some insight into my growing paranoia. It's gotten to the point I replaced all my water change buckets and RO piping jus tto be super sure.

Stray Voltage - I've thought about this, I need to double check, never had a tingle or a zap when reaching into the tank with hangnails, but I know there can be small amounts. Fish all behave normally, but worth a look

Cat - Yes, he is incredibly grumpy, but not ambitious enough to be peeing in the tank, there's no canopy or way he could do this without balancing on the glass and he's not that motivated

Aerosols - Absolutely banned in the non-bathroom rooms of house as of 5-6 months ago as a trouble shooting move.



One thing that has bugged me, which I wonder about:
Things about 7 months in actually were going great, and the tank was growing some montiporas and birdsnest type frags. While prepping for a trip, I managed to spill most of the feeder into the tank, I netted out a TON of the food, and did a waterchange to suck out most of the particulate. When we got back ~5 days later there was a noticeable decline in corals but I figured I could pull them out of the tailspin, and this has been somewhat static since. I don't know if it's just me trying to blame something, but is there anyway a big phos surge from pellet food could have something to do with wacky levels even still now?

 

[Dburr1014]

7 months in puts it at 7 months ago.
I don't think, and others can correct me, that a bump up in po4 would do much damage. But if you pulled it down from a period of risen PO4 that would have more of affect. By period I don't mean a case of a few days or a week, I'm talking a few months.
And while we're talking about po4, I realize you run it on the lower end which to me is too low also, but that wouldn't explain frags declining in a week from receiving them.

Edit : while I have you here this magnesium has me very baffled. I don't trust to Hannah checker, and I'm not familiar with trident though a lot of people use them they're probably close. Is there any way you can check your magnesium with another test kit. My aquaforest test kit will actually go above 1500. It's a titration test kit but it allows you to go way high. Just a thought.

 

[NexusCriteria]

Hanna (the second gen they replaced) plus the trident and also the old fashioned titration test all give me around the same numbers. I’ve since dialed the dosing down to 5 mL per day and interestingly the levels haven’t dropped. Maybe that was the issue ?

 

[ScottB]

What he says. Plus add more established LR from other established systems growing acros. And add more fish!

Fish Pee, Coral's Number One Nutrient Supply, Cut by Fishing

Fish urine plays an important role in coral reefs' food chain—but unsustainable fishing can devastate this natural nutrient flow.

www.nationalgeographic.com

Fish also add a continuous slow drip of ammonia from respiration & waste. Yummy stuff for corals.