The greatest responsibility of new cyclers is fish disease prep, what are you doing to prepare?

[brandon429]

All my fish died

Hi everyone, I am new to the reefing hobby, I've had my tank for about 3 months and everything was going great. I then got some coral frags from my local fish store and glued them in using Seachems reef glue. I woke up the next morning and 2/3 of my fish were dead and my wrasse was on its side...

www.reef2reef.com

my entire thread is designed for these posts, this happened yesterday when everyone was on the personal stuff. Notice how he is willing to change vs dig in heels? Notice how he should have been told all this during cycle to avoid the first big fish kill?

here, where there’s nothing on the line, opinions were free to range tremendously


but where there’s work and outcome needed folks seem to agree.

people posting in that thread above are in step to help him, he’s not getting wildly ranging input all confusing. I typed in the thread he used the first I didn’t know card and we can’t use it twice, thats a kinder reference to this thread here about ultimate responsibility

and he agreed and is seeking change, and that’s how influence changes hobby practice - one work at a time until a new pattern set makes change and changes what peers recommend to each other.


I know what work threads can do and we will directly link fish disease preps to the cycle and it will become commonplace, just gimme eight more years to seat it into reefing practice.




______________________________________________



from the work thread on post #88 you can see plain as day all cycles complete on time, none stall. It’s twenty pages of giving exact start dates for cycles plus follow up months after the fact, reef cycles don’t stall that’s a false concept and we show it by assigning a specific start date for every reef there vs old science which was always an open-ended wait for the cycle to be done. Stalls are merely no TAN conversion panic ammonia reports on non digital kits, they’re not real.

seeing that no cycle fails to complete on time, we insert fish disease as the absolute concern at the start, not the ammonia, and we make positive change in the hobby relative to other people’s tanks not my little bubbling pico reef on the counter.

what I have at home doesn’t matter, Im working with public trending for my science.

 

[Lyss]

I’m genuinely not trying to be difficult but I just read the linked thread from the above post and if you read it all, his final thoughts were the below, b/c he wasn’t sure if he believed they had a disease:

“I think my plan at the moment is to buy a cheap fish and put it in the tank and see what happens.”

And no one said anything to that directly.

 

[brandon429]

that new reefer is qualified to assess disease?


you can see what the others are stating

I stated clearly it sure is.


he skipped all preps and only fish died all corals and cuc is fine, in the fish forum it’s disease too. You can’t skip preps in a four month tank, have those high level fish die by themselves (he adds bag water to the tank when adding fish / clues) and not think it’s disease from any perspective from the disease forum.


Here? I’m sure 90% feel it’s not disease as well.

 

[Ef4life]

Thanks for your reply its interesting seeing how other people do it. Ignorance was bliss for me being a beginner but it definitely sounds worth while getting a small QT tank (wish me luck trying to convince my other half).

I think my plan at the moment is to buy a cheap fish and put it in the tank and see what happens. I still think there is a chance the fish just eat the stringy fibres that came off the glue as i didnt switch my power heads off. But maybe not, I dont know, just very strange timing with regards to adding my frags then all my fish dying.

heres the op from your linked post Brandon, after all the advice given - the plan is to just wing it - again.

 

[brandon429]

I did not see that lol I love it. Not the winging it x2 I just love the comedic timing of that given my efforts and Tamberavs efforts



folks hate, hate, hate any work for prep. The fish are too easy to just replace and buy more. That is a very fitting frame of reference for how we’ve trained each other to build these reefs it’s still a great work example, and an example of complete wasting of fish. Toss em, get more.

 

[brandon429]

being too nice about the losses at the start was the risk, it wasn’t made clear enough this is preventable

 

[Lyss]

That’s what I was pointing out above. But my overall point was that no one caught it or said anything to him to try to stop it.

There was a lot of advice given to go fallow before restocking, and I agree w/that in that OP’s case — it’s also what I would do in that case, b/c all the fish died and there was no clear reason.

But I think it goes to show that you can give good advice, but at the end of the day it’s up to the person on the receiving end to follow it or not. Ppl are gonnna do what they want to do.

 

[FishyFishFish]

Unfollowing.

If you want to educate people then you need to bring them along for the ride, not patronize them and tell them they are being irresponsible.

Also, I have to say, the way that you write is really difficult to read. It is almost like a different language and it is the same type of language in the rip clean threads as well. It’s almost turned into bot speak.

Genuine question. Have you QT’d a fish yourself? I am new to the hobby and QT’d my first 2 and it isn’t as easy as it sounds. Even the QT the experts have changed their guidance in the few months I have been doing this.

In my opinion, if you want to save the fish world, this needs to be aimed at the trade. Without any data (which seems to be an acceptable means of coming to conclusions), I would think that the problems/deaths caused by the end customer are small fry (no pun intended) compared to the supply chain.

 

[brandon429]

I see, agreed fully Lyss



Fishy fish

it’s good to unsub, I didn’t see you had posted.
this isn’t the kid gloves loss thread, all other ones are though.


here we point out the flip flop ability of umpires and how the current standard of training isnt working. We are discussing how umpires need to get in unison vs give outs to folks to repeat direct fish kills.

Lyss

I didn’t know he posted that update last nite lol I truly thought we’d turned one around in the sea, that did not occur whatsoever. Heck I figured the rest of their exchange after I left was where to buy the pre quarantined fish Tamberav had mentioned


until we are in unison that disease preps are required, anything above just adding straight pet store fish, we give outs that allow for the wasting of animals. I’m a little confused on how cycling is held to such a high standard for no loss but we release all req’mnts for retention of life soon after. If someone lost a clown during fish in cycling, nine or twenty folks borderline chide him about burning fish / being mean / this isn’t kosher

at month four with zero preps done on mixed pet store fish, even after being linked the disease forum? Some of our umpires aren’t sure it’s disease and he agreed.

Lyss that helps me see it’s not solely the new keepers that need the pressure, it’s peers who trained him at the start


not from here, he showed up already reefing here at rtr that was his first post. Whatever train of information he used to be a reefer at the start directly re aimed his focus away from disease preps and into something else (nitrite, I’m betting).

Somehow he took from that thread that killing fish just after the cycle wasn’t mean or un allowed or risks social consequence.

we need a mean thread/ you’re doing it on purpose because you’re spoiled with easy access thread/ to show contrast and step up the four month retention game


we need to handle it as if the fish died during a fish- in cycle: the only time a group of umpires will furiously resist wasting in unison. If this was a puppy forum we’d all not tolerate any of this whatsover.

If he had lost those fish during a bottle bac cycle, do a search to see how umpires step up their wording accordingly.

Accountability ends when the cycle ends, thats the issue.

 

[FishyFishFish]

You still haven't answered my question, how many fish have you PERSONALLY put through QT?

What practical experience do you have of the difficulties?

here we point out the flip flop ability of umpires and how the current standard of training isnt working.

Current standard of training? What training is required to buy a fish?


If it's a mindset thing, then maybe encouraging rapid cycling and skip cycling isn't the best idea. On the assumption that all works (and I have no reason to think that it doesn't), how can you on one hand advocate instant cycling and then on the other hand tell people that they must slow down and QT all their fish.

Maybe the advice that you are giving out, whilst technically correct, may be part of the problem.

I said I was done here before, I definitely am now, because you can't have a meaningful discussion with someone who will only listen to one side of the argument.

 

[brandon429]

it’s good you’re back


what matters isn’t my home reef, covered prior page. I skim too don’t feel bad.

I deal in hundreds of other people’s reefs live time across various tasks and I recommend they each follow exactly what Jay and Humblefish advise.


that example thread above seems to be getting some added direction, he had posted some questions about the local pet store quarantine process. Key terminology did at least function there.


regarding cycling, my advice is make a work thread to test your claims, it requires proofing in tanks other than your own. Show me your data that earning total nitrite compliance and skipping preps works (which is 90% of any entrant on the first ten pages on the disease forum, I checked)

dont unsub, stay.

 

[FishyFishFish]

it’s good you’re back


what matters isn’t my home reef, covered prior page. I skim too don’t feel bad.

More patronizing comments. How do you expect to educate people if you talk to them like they are idiots?

You've answered my question by not answering it; you clearly have never QT'd a fish. If you can't see why that's a problem when you're telling the whole (some extremely experienced fish and reef keepers) reefing community that they have to QT (and haven't even clarified your position on what level of QT as far as I can tell) then there is no hope.

Now you're just trolling.

 

[brandon429]

It’s confusing when you lead with a punishment statement, unsubbed, then continue the argument without specific answers to whether or not we are getting some proof that extended cycling wait makes up for no disease preps.

I honestly view anyone who tries to make a point to me without a work thread, but with a tank at home, as trolling. I’m thinking the whole time: I bet you couldn’t get five reefs to post consistent outcomes with that.

Im now checking your post history to see if you‘re a quarantiner like McLovin is

 

[FishyFishFish]

It’s confusing when you lead with a punishment statement, unsubbed, then continue the argument without specific answers to whether or not we are getting some proof that extended cycling wait makes up for no disease preps.

Show me where I said that 'extended cycling wait makes up for no disease preps'.

 

[brandon429]

Ok good, you’re pro fish disease prep. Your confusing tone made me think you might not have been, all set.


if you don’t want to make a cycling work thread to test claims, I’ll accept anyone else’s data that waiting longer for a cycle ensures less disease expression from pet store fish.

 

[brandon429]

Show me where I said that 'extended cycling wait makes up for no disease preps'.

=
“then maybe encouraging rapid cycling and skip cycling isn't the best idea.”

along with topical anger you’re speaking in inverses.


All I’m asking for is that the next time you spot a cycle question thread, assure them that part is fine and the real focus needs to be disease, it’s that simple

agreed we can’t be directly mean to them in the thread. Here we can just assume the same level of frustration at four months of loss as if it happened during the initial cycle, let them see the flippancy of that umpire mode, and hope they can self assess

 

[FishyFishFish]

If it's a mindset thing, then maybe encouraging rapid cycling and skip cycling isn't the best idea. On the assumption that all works (and I have no reason to think that it doesn't), how can you on one hand advocate instant cycling and then on the other hand tell people that they must slow down and QT all their fish.

Maybe the advice that you are giving out, whilst technically correct, may be part of the problem.

“then maybe encouraging rapid cycling and skip cycling isn't the best idea.”

along with topical anger you’re speaking in inverses.

You need the full quote.

 

[brandon429]

No lets stop the argument here. Any future points you’d like to make are welcome and I won’t address them to end the argument, I wasn’t swayed with the four prior posts.


In this thread we are taking the stance that losses on month four are equally offensive to losses that happen when people add fish and bottle bac on day one and Api says they were burned obviously.

 

[brandon429]

For fun

and contrast


Im compiling a few quotes from umpires during fish in cycles for the last decade gimme a sec

we will rate these upcoming quotes on the accountability scale of nice and totally passive permissibly accepted to: you are freaking burning your fish, stop. It won’t take long gimme a min


the web is littered with times we forcefully told new tankers not to do something / collation takes a bit

 

[brandon429]

mkay what’s taking so long is nobody has lost marine fish during a bottle bac cycle lol I’m now having to search the warning posts