The Green Carbon Dosing Metalology (phytoplankton)

[sixty_reefer]

This thread is aimed at discussing the potential of using Phytoplankton as a carbon dosing method and possibly fixing microbiology in a salt water tank during the process.

The concept that led me to think that phytoplankton can be beneficial to a reef comes from nature, this is a process that already exists in the ocean, I’m just adapting to a way that is beneficial for a salt water aquarium.

Main thoughts today about phytoplankton:

There is several speculation, on how some will notice a decrease in No3 and po4 from dosing live phytoplankton. Most will say that the reason you would get a lower nutrients in a saltwater tank, would be due to the live algae being consuming the nutrients directly.

I believe the above common thought is wrong, firstly if the phytoplankton was in-fact consuming the nutrients directly we should observe an increase in mass, days after the phytoplankton was added to the salt water aquarium. This doesn’t happen. What really happens is that the phytoplankton once added to a salt water aquarium will settle on the sand bed, live rock and filter medias. Once settled microbes will immediately start to transform the micro algae in to several different elements with the aid of denitrification. (Possibly)

2. Dosing live phytoplankton will outcompete dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria accordingly with many users of this micro algae.

This was a thought I’ve used to have also, during recent years I have come to the conclusion that the phytoplankton is not competing directly with this nuisances. What’s really happening in my opinion is that the phytoplankton once broken down to basic elements, will be a strong source of energy to the microbes and micro organisms living in our salt water tanks, and once the population is strong the microbes will repopulate and outcompete the nuisance bacteria and algae.

3. Dosing live phytoplankton is good to feed filter feeders like sponges, gorgonians and most NPS directly.

In my opening this filter feeding creatures are not being feed directly with the live phytoplankton, they are being feed with the increased number of microbes and micro organisms in the system as a result of phytoplankton break down to basic elements.

4. Many users of phytoplankton will observe different results with they’re personal experience using live phytoplankton.

My take is that not everyone is growing the same species of phytoplankton or more importantly using the same fertiliser formula. Some have higher phosphate levels in comparison to others.

To expand on how different formulas will possibly impact the different personal experiences with the live algae, I will have to briefly touch on Redfild ratio for phytoplankton. Redfield says that the ratio for most species of phytoplankton is 106:16:1 on a Carbon, Nitrogen to phosphate ratio. This is the most close Ratio to how sea water absorb this nutrients. There for if we using fertilises with higher phosphate to nitrogen ratios our phytoplankton cultures will absorb higher phosphate in comparison to phytoplankton found in sea water with lower exposure to phosphate. One thing I would take in account if dosing live phytoplankton would be using a ratio on the fertiliser close to redfild 16:1 nitrogen to phosphate. This will be important because once the phytoplankton starts to breakdown in the salt water aquarium, it will be released on to the water column at the same ratio as it absorbed in the home grown culture. More po4 in the culture more po4 releas

what I intend to do to give my theories some substantial evidence.

To give my theory a substantial evidence that is in-fact dead phytoplankton that is doing all of the above, I have created a simple reactor connected to the tank, that is only purpose is to decompose freeze dried phytoplankton (dead but fresh), my goal is to find what’s the right amount of phytoplankton needed to be possible to use it as a nutrients export method and a aid to strengthen micro organisms.

Test results so far:

day 0

10ml of freeze dried phytoplankton was added to a reactor on a 20 gallon tank.

day 1
Further 10ml of phytoplankton added to the reactor

Gas Bubbles were observed coming from the phytoplankton reactor after the first 24 hours, meaning that the microbes in the water column started breaking the phytoplankton almost immediately.

Day 2

1. phytoplankton in the bottom of the reactor changed to a darker colour and constant gas bubbles can be observed coming from the phytoplankton.

2. A set of hobby test kits were performed to try and see if the water chemistry coming out the reactor was different from the water in the display.

There is very satisfying results, the no3 coming out the reactor is 5 to 10 ppm lower than the display tank, in addition nh4 is 0.1 ppm coming out from the reactor compared to the zero nh4 from the display and the kh is 0.5 dkh lower coming out of the reactor also.

This gives me substantial initial evidence that it can be possible to use phytoplankton to lower nutrients.

test tank

For a test tank I’m using a aquarium that has been struggling probably due to dead rock. It has photosynthetic dinoflagellates and Cyanobacteria on its surfaces

the goal is to observe the transformation on the display in the coming days, intend not to touch the tank to see if all goes away naturally with the aide of micro organisms boosted by phytoplankton.

video of gas bubbles in the previous reactor



video of the tank under white light day 1

 

[sixty_reefer]

Day 3

There is an overhaul reduction in no3 of around 15ppm, I had no3 of 20ppm wend I started and I’ve got a no3 of 5now.

From the reactor I can still see nh4 of around 0.05ppm, slightly less than yesterday at 0.1ppm Will add 1ml scoop and see progress.

so far no effect on Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates, the only thing I can see is that we’re the snail clean the sand bed the dinoflagellates are struggling to grow back again.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Note to self: every time fresh PP is added there is an increase in nh4 release

before and after adding 2ml

Before

After 3 hours

 

[sixty_reefer]

Day 3 and a half

last night I’ve went around with a power head on the rock work and stirred the sand with a wand. The dinoflagellates looked weak tough would be a good idea to give it a stirring to see if they would come back, so far they seem that they stayed away but the lights just coming on will post later today to see if it worked.

 

[LgTas]

Following along, very interesting

 

[sixty_reefer]

Following along, very interesting

Thank you for your interest, the main test is running in parallel on the background, I intend to gain some important data on the feeding of the Dendronephthya, I got a feeling that this reactor could be a step closer for a successful method to keep them alive long therm in the hobby.

The coral can be seen in the main tank far right corner on the glass reflection and on the second pic (top view) if the coral gains in mass during the next few months this would support some of my openings ideologies that this corals are not benefiting from the phytoplankton directly.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Day 4

the sand bed is still reasonably clean after the stirring with the wand and the rock seems ok to me also, meaning that for the first time in the last 6 months the PP Reactor really outcompete the photosynthetic Dinoflagellates of my system in 3 days. am not 100% sure about the Cyanobacteria the next few days will tell how long will it take for them to start to burn out. For now I am going to start enjoying my sand for the first time in a wile.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Day 4

this is how the reactor is looking now, there is a brown ish sludge buildup at the bottom , it’s quite a familiar look to me, this used to build up in my previous sump. This is one of the reasoning for being in a reactor, will be a great aid to remove unused PP.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Day 4.5

there is a assurance that the dinoflagellates are gone from the system, it looks like the microbes and micro organisms in the tank, just performed a “rip clean” for me. There’s no new growth in dinoflagellates for 24 hours now.

will be going out today to look for small rocks to seed the system further with micro organisms. It seems that the sweet spot so far seems to be around 6 to 20 ml of freeze dryer PP, for outcompeting dinoflagellates.

having everything in a reactor has been beneficial to keep the main tank free of sludge and debris from the PP break downs. I think there’s enough evinced so far that phytoplankton will decompose and feed organisms this way.

 

[J1a]

This is interesting!

Can I clarify that you are basically pushing water very slowly above an undisturbed bed of phytoplankton? In order to cultivate a variety of microbe?

I have been feeding freeze dried phyto to my tank as well. I find the FD planktons, without the pesky culture media, allows me to feed a large amount without any pressure on nutrient export.

In fact, I add freeze dried rotifer, copepod and bacteria into the mix. Very good response from all sorts of corals.

Will be following to learn more!

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is interesting!

Can I clarify that you are basically pushing water very slowly above an undisturbed bed of phytoplankton? In order to cultivate a variety of microbe?

I have been feeding freeze dried phyto to my tank as well. I find the FD planktons, without the pesky culture media, allows me to feed a large amount without any pressure on nutrient export.

In fact, I add freeze dried rotifer, copepod and bacteria into the mix. Very good response from all sorts of corals.

Will be following to learn more!

Yes that’s correct, the flow is coming from a 6mm air line, just enough to keep the water circulating without disturbing the phytoplankton at the bottom of the vessel. the PP gets broken down almost instantly once in the reactor by the bacteria, as it would inside the tank. There is a constant release of natural ammonia from the outlet of the reactor that I believe is the key to strengthen the ecosystem from the bottom up.

 

[J1a]

Thank you for the reply.

Is the reactor illuminated?

I have seen in your other thread that kh is lower at the reactor effluent. Could it be due to photosynthesis?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Thank you for the reply.

Is the reactor illuminated?

I have seen in your other thread that kh is lower at the reactor effluent. Could it be due to photosynthesis?

The reactor location receives light, but there will be dark places inside the vessel were light can’t penetrate trough the sludge, I did ask Randy if he had an idea what could be causing the lower dkh, unfortunately i didn’t got a reply, That was one of the reasons I’ve started in the chemistry forum, I’ve wanted to understand further some of the effects. Nevertheless not understanding the full chemistry behind the concept, there is visual interpretation that can’t be denied. I can see a massive improvement to a tank that spend most of the summer looking awful to something that looks like that I can see starting to bloom. In a small timeframe of days.

 

[J1a]

In a small timeframe of days

This is truely impressive, regardless the science behind it.

Would you suppose direct dosing of ammonia into dt will achieve similar effect?

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is truely impressive, regardless the science behind it.

Would you suppose direct dosing of ammonia into dt will achieve similar effect?

Personally is more that just ammonia, phytoplankton ammonia comes from the amino acids, which is a earlier stage of ammonia. There is a vast combination of ingredients being re leased to the water column, as phytoplankton breaks down. This is a chemical analysis of the one I use

there’s to many natural elements being released that will be hard to pin point just one.

how are you finding dosing freeze dried directly into the tank?

 

[J1a]

how are you finding dosing freeze dried directly into the tank?

I found freeze dried planktons (phyto + zoo + bacterio plankton) great for my reef. Impressive feeding response from sps and nps; lps also gets more puffy in general.

I feed quite a fair bit of plankton (1-2 teaspoon) per day, in addition to fish pellets. There is no significant impact on the nitrate and phosphate level of my aquarium.

 

[Forty-Two]

The reactor location receives light, but there will be dark places inside the vessel were light can’t penetrate trough the sludge, I did ask Randy if he had an idea what could be causing the lower dkh, unfortunately i didn’t got a reply, That was one of the reasons I’ve started in the chemistry forum, I’ve wanted to understand further some of the effects. Nevertheless not understanding the full chemistry behind the concept, there is visual interpretation that can’t be denied. I can see a massive improvement to a tank that spend most of the summer looking awful to something that looks like that I can see starting to bloom. In a small timeframe of days.

this is a great thread - following along. I have a PP reactor I’m trying to get up and running but I’ve had several physical setbacks. I was thinking of shelving the idea until I saw this thread.

 

[Forty-Two]

Day 4.5

there is a assurance that the dinoflagellates are gone from the system, it looks like the microbes and micro organisms in the tank, just performed a “rip clean” for me. There’s no new growth in dinoflagellates for 24 hours now.

will be going out today to look for small rocks to seed the system further with micro organisms. It seems that the sweet spot so far seems to be around 6 to 20 ml of freeze dryer PP, for outcompeting dinoflagellates.

having everything in a reactor has been beneficial to keep the main tank free of sludge and debris from the PP break downs. I think there’s enough evinced so far that phytoplankton will decompose and feed organisms this way.

Sorry duplicate - logging in/posting bug I suspect.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I found freeze dried planktons (phyto + zoo + bacterio plankton) great for my reef. Impressive feeding response from sps and nps; lps also gets more puffy in general.

I feed quite a fair bit of plankton (1-2 teaspoon) per day, in addition to fish pellets. There is no significant impact on the nitrate and phosphate level of my aquarium.

I cans see the video, will try and logging from the desktop later to see it. That’s very interesting you mentioned that getting puffy, wend I had the continuous live phytoplankton reactor that’s one of things I’ve also noticed

My motiporas digitata developed an abnormal Polyp extension, I still think, as you do, that all is connected to phytoplankton and the development of microorganisms in the tank.
Regarding to nutrients I’ve only noticed a difference in the 2nd day wend I tested the different from the reactor to the tank of around 10ppm, I had 20ml of fresh phytoplankton wend that happened, will try and dose 20ml again to see if the nutrients impact is related to the amount of the dose.

 

[J1a]

Regarding to nutrients I’ve only noticed a difference in the 2nd day wend I tested the different from the reactor to the tank of around 10ppm, I had 20ml of fresh phytoplankton wend that happened, will try and dose 20ml again to see if the nutrients impact is related to the amount of the dose.

I think we are using planktons very differently at this stage though. Your goal is for them to breakdown and feed bacteria etc, while mine is direct feeding.

My thinking is this: it's much more plausible to have corals encoutering nanoplanktons, as compared to larger and stronger preys. For example, tubastraea, if individual coral polyps require their own food supply, it is gonna be much more difficult to fulfil if they rely on larger pods on the regular basis.

Another interesting observation is that with smaller prey, it seems like LPS can feed without the often seen "feeding tentacles" look. Yet they look puffy and healthy. (The aquarium is run with very low nitrate and phosphate).