The importance of live bacteria in food

Discussion in 'Aquarium Nutrition' started by Paul B, Apr 13, 2017.

  1. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    We as aquarists normally feed our fish something that we can buy commercially.

    We normally buy some food that has a nice picture of a healthy, colorful fish on the package. I also use some commercially available food but besides that I feed something else at every meal. Most commercial frozen food is fine and provides a nice assortment of vitamins, minerals and trace elements that our fish need but they can't provide one very important part of the fishes diet. Maybe the most important part of it's diet.

    That thing is living bacteria. Fish in the sea eat whole, fresh foods every day which contains the gut bacteria of it's meal. The living gut bacteria is very important for the fishes immune system and has been studied extensively in humans "and" now in fish. Virtually all commercially available frozen food would normally be devoid of this bacteria because the food needs to be sterile so it lasts long enough to sell and ship it.

    Probiotics are added to some foods in the hope of replenishing some of this bacteria and I assume that would qualify as a better food than food without it. But IMO, that is not enough. Every day I also feed, along with a commercial food, live worms, clams and new born brine shrimp. My fish are immune from just about every disease and have been for decades but that is for another thread because I am tired of people calling me "lucky" as that is not my name.

    I didn't make this up as I have been linking articles about it for a couple of years. My wife came upon this just today and it is about this subject. About half way through this short video they mention fish tanks. I think it is interesting.



    http://www.openbiome.org/about-fmt/
     
    Tags:

  2. Areseebee

    Areseebee Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    359
    Microbiota is enormously important for more than just the immune system, this is a really rapidly expanding field of study in all areas of biology. It can play a major role in altering how we respond to drugs, environment, diet, etc by providing necessary metabolites or processing otherwise toxic compounds. Heck, toxoplasma makes mice sexually attracted to cats and apparently can even alter our own behaviors. As you note, fecal transplants are used in Crohns disease as a way to transplant microbiota.

    I guess overall my point is just that it is important to remember this isn't just a property of immune response, it has a ton to do with the interdependency of our metabolism and the creatures that have colonize us.

    Edit: one thing I didn't realize is that most frozen food is sterilized. Is this true even for all of them?
     
    cgdcinc, buzzword and mcarroll like this.
  3. stevo01

    stevo01 R33F!N @DD!CT R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2016
    Messages:
    3,406
    Likes Received:
    3,285
    Location:
    Lebanon, NH
    Great topic and fully agree. Thanks Paul!
     
  4. brandon429

    brandon429 why did you put a reef in that R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2014
    Messages:
    5,779
    Likes Received:
    3,631
    Location:
    tejas
    I agree with the assessments above. I don't think Paul is lucky beyond his ability to pre plan for hardware failures/outages and the actual event to fall within the sustenance timeframe maximums for the preps. you had a massive power outage during a snow storm, and the duration of that event didn't eclipse the abilities of your generators etc. you preempted the event as best you could, I own no generator so my old pico relies on much more luck.

    That any of our reefs run day to day is always a matter of some form of hardware luck. I use Pauls long term tank in tons of examples of detritus control however. if that sandbed wasn't a RUGF, and it was left untouched to compile waste upon waste, then the tank would be all cyano by now even if the ATS was quadrupled in size. I think his feeding regimen, consistency and sourcing is for sure a measure of excellence and fish lifespan is reflecting that.

    The ability for the tank to not be plant dominated in the DT after 45 yrs is a function of actions taken to export waste from the system, including inducing storm clouding events that move what detritus is in the sand up into circulation where currents distribute it about to either be exported in some way or to continue breaking down in the tank (turf scrubber) or even taking down the tank to clean the sandbed... as infrequent as that may be its been a part of this 45 yr documentation. the oldest tanks simply take action on sandbeds, they don't run untouched and constantly taking on waste. interim old tanks can get away with that.

    That being said, Pauls tank is a study in old tank syndrome as much as it is for immunoboosting. Without detritus controls, nobody keeps a sandbed in the display tank 40 years as a fish diaper and gets away with it, nobody.

    The only reason I disagree with letting areas of detritus and plant growth combine into periphyton zones (which is natural for the ocean) as a matter of common practice is because we are typically working with nano reefers in lots of threads contemplating that technique but don't have the dilution for that kind of blending. they are typically already fighting an algae problem of some sort where farming more algae and fuel isn't the same turnaround that a rip cleaning would impart

    Very good points on the feeding. Paul could sell legit 1 ounce doses out of his tank water as a fine and varied bacterial additive. Id dump some in my landlocked tank, we are no where near the ocean we are pure synth out in the Amarillo/Lubbock sticks. Any retail additives sold out of Paul B's tank water are just as valid as any other pro biotic out there, after all this culture is a blend of natural oceanic complements combined with biota from a stable and aged captive system

    You should name it STABLE and sell it for nine fitty a bottle. id do one man.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2017
    Scrappy RN likes this.
  5. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    I can't say that virtually all of them are, but the many that I looked at this week are. Most read, :this product is irradiated to kill harmful bacteria and parasites:. In other words, it is sterilized.
    Fish don't live well on a sterilized diet nor would we.

    I do take mud from tide pools like this in the summer at low tide whenever I can. If I did not live near the sea, I would take clean garden soil or lake mud and throw it in although I am not sure what benefit this would have. I remember at the start of this hobby, I think it was Robert Straughn (The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping" who recommended that practice but I don't remember if I ever did it.

    People always ask me if I am worried about introducing bad bacteria and parasites, I always say I am worried if I don't introduce those things.

    [​IMG]
     
    norfolkgarden and WandaMay like this.
  6. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Ocean mud is free. I am sure people will say it is illegal to collect, so shoot me. In fifty years of grabbing handfuls of mud, so far I have not seen any mud police. Tang police maybe, but not mud. I never got a summons and I am very sure, the places I collect, no officer of any agency will venture into. That tide pool I pictured above requires a boat to get to and at high tide there is 8' of water there. If I did not want to go there I could just scrape mud off the anchor of my boat and could just say, I am cleaning my anchor.
    I am not sure mud can be shipped without killing the bacteria or if it is allowed on a plane. I doubt it because there is no place to check on the list of illegal substances. It is not flammable, corrosive, explosive, addictive, loud or a restricted, regulated, endangered or in danger of becoming extinct. It's mud.

    As for shipping some of my tank water. No one wants that because I have been playing Russian Roulette for forty six years and most people are sure my tank will crash by next Tuesday. :eek:
     
  7. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    11,955
    Likes Received:
    5,409
    Location:
    Virginia
    I knew a dude who concocted a soil filter for his saltwater tank. He had no clue about saltwater tanks, but he was clued into the humic acids and other contents of soil. Good stuff!!

    I thought it was a great idea to test, but I didn't stay in touch with him to know how his tank turned out.

    Pro-biotically speaking, I bet there are some microbes that would makes the transition, but I'm guessing. :)
     
  8. Areseebee

    Areseebee Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    359
    I don't see anything about it on either LRS or Rod's.
     
  9. Areseebee

    Areseebee Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    359
    So is there any irony in purposely trying to introduce a parasite so that your fish develops specific antibodies for that parasite so that it is immune if that specific parasite is ever introduced?
     
  10. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    11,955
    Likes Received:
    5,409
    Location:
    Virginia
    Life is fully of irony is you slow down and pay attention. :) ;) :D
     
    norfolkgarden and buzzword like this.
  11. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    I do that all the time by not quarantining. If I see some parasites on a new fish, that's great.
    But don't tell anyone or you will get that Russian Roulette thing
     
  12. Areseebee

    Areseebee Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    359
    And by introducing that parasite into your tank, your fish will create antibodies (that must be maintained in perpetuity) which are handy in case that parasite is ever introduced into your tank.
     
  13. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Exactly. But if your fish are not immune, don't do that.
     
    seanhamilton likes this.
  14. mcarroll

    mcarroll Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    11,955
    Likes Received:
    5,409
    Location:
    Virginia
    Which came first? The immune fish or the parasite?
     
  15. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    The egg. Or the chicken :eek:
     
  16. ReefFrenzy

    ReefFrenzy Shrimp Pimp R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Location:
    Advance, NC
    Running out to dinner with the family but just wanted to chime in and say we have been adding active cultures of bacteria to all our foods since 2013 and our website has a little info about it here: http://www.larrysreefservices.com/probiotics.html

    In addition our new Fertility Frenzy® blend also has several additional strains of bacteria added right before final packaging. That blend has been in involved with several captive breeding successes since its development and "probiotics" are certainly getting quite a bit of attention in the aquaculture of marine ornamentals.

    Supplementation certainly didn't hurt the breeding efforts of these folks. (Shameful plug, I know) http://www.larrysreefservices.com/testimonials.html

    Lot's more research is likely to follow about how it can help.
     
  17. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Larry, that's why I use your food every day. I do add other things also, but that's just me, I am very old school, I am talking coal heated schools. I know about the bacteria you put in which is great.
    Some of Larry's food also has blackworms in it and you know how much I love black worms.
     
    mcarroll and Reefer1978 like this.
  18. WandaMay

    WandaMay Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    19
    What is the temperature difference between the ocean where you live and your reef tank? Do many critters live with a change in temp in your experience?
     
  19. Paul B

    Paul B Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Spotlight Award Build Thread Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    7,353
    Likes Received:
    11,896
    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Hello WandaMay. The ocean here in the summer gets to about 70 degrees and probably into the 40s in the winter. The local crabs, snails and amphipods all live fine in my tank. I still have a load of amphipods in there from last year. The snails live a few months and I am not sure if they die on their own or if my hermit crabs kill them for their shells. The tide pool where I collect these things get very warm in the summer, warmer than my tank.
    Here is the tide pool where I normally collect. This is how I dress when I am going for tuxedo urchins.

    [​IMG]

    Some snails, I can collect these in fifty gallon drums If I want.
    [​IMG]

    I anchor my boat and get there by dinghy, or I can walk or swim.

    [​IMG]

    My Grand Daughter points to where the pool is.
    [​IMG]

    Handful of amphipods.
    [​IMG]

    And a video collecting

    http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2012-01-02030422_zps2e3e126b.mp4.html?sort=3&o=337
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2017
  20. WandaMay

    WandaMay Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2017
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    19
    Wow, that is awesome! We live in Idaho :( We frequently visit the Oregon coast but water there is so cold I am sure nothing would make it in my warm reef tank. I absolutely love tidepooling and beach combing. I sit for hours at low tide and watch the critters. Simmarily, I love hitchhikers and can't get enough invertebrates in my tank. I drive my LFS crazy (in a fun way) They have some rock with bright green aptasia (or something very similar to aptasia) I am thinking about buying the rock nobody wants because I think it looks cool. My dream tank is to have an Oregon tidepool in my living room but chillers are so expensive and intimidate me. A few people I met that have done this said you also have to have thick glass or the tank sweats because of the temp difference in the house
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

Loading...