The importance of live bacteria in food

[Paul B]

Chilled tanks are a real pain to maintain for a few reasons so you really need to move to the coast. You can come here, drive east and bear right at the Statue of Liberty.

 

[WandaMay]

Getting the car packed now for a visit Paul I have been driving myself crazy for 2 days figuring out how to order/house some black worms. None of my LFS carry them so I am stuck ordering online. Is there a difference that makes black worms much better for fish compared to other worms (other than size obviously) I plan to get some white worms too but was also considering red worms, small earthworms (or freshly chopped earthworms) I also found some microworms on a fw sight that are supposed to be easily cultured and reproduce rapidly. Seperate from worms I found whole octopus for sale at grocery store, I could chop up mantle and freeze for fish and hubby can have tentacles. Do you think there is great benefit in that? (For fish not hubby lol) When I go to Oregon coast critters won't make it alive but I could collect food - whole mussels, fish guts, etc and chop and freeze?

 

[Paul B]

Wanda, I think any type of worm would be fine because it is most important the bacteria in the worm that will keep up the immunity of the fish. I use blackworms and whiteworms and when I am in a collecting mood, earthworms. Blackworms are hard to come by now due to the drought in California. I am surprised people elsewhere don't grow them, it's not lie you have to send them to college or anything but you need a fresh water source.
Before you order worms on line you either need a large refrigerator or a worm keeper like I built. But for a lot of worms it would have to be cycled very well with some dead fish or something that rots, and that may stink. It takes a while to cycle a worm tank but once it's cycled, you can keep worms forever. If I get time I am going to build a much larger worm keeper so I can get them in bulk.
Let me know when you are passing the Statue of Liberty.

 

[londonloco]

I've always wanted a cold water marine tank also......haven't made the plunge yet, but someday, maybe. There is a fb page: Coldwater Marine Aquarium Owners, join and read, it's very interesting.

 

[WandaMay]

I've always wanted a cold water marine tank also......haven't made the plunge yet, but someday, maybe. There is a fb page: Coldwater Marine Aquarium Owners, join and read, it's very interesting.

I will look that up Thanks

 

[WandaMay]

For worms I was going to try to build a worm house I was thinking of a sponge filter and maybe soaking sponge in my sons guppy tank to help cycle some but I may try other worms because it is getting so hot here. I could keep I fridge but that limits the size of container (my hubby has fish eggs he cures for homemade bait) I actually have access to alot of stuff for homemade fish food now that I think about it but really want to go for live bacteria like you......so live worms should be my base I think. For summer I think I will start with white worms and look around for small worms I can raise in a soil wormbox because I can keep them easier during the summer

 

[Paul B]

You can use any live or freshly frozen worms or fish eggs if your fish eat them. Some eggs they won't eat for some reason.

 

[WandaMay]

Thanks for your help Paul I am currently setting up a white worm culture, vinegar eels and microworms for experimenting this summer.

 

[Paul B]

Wanda your fish are going to have a People crush on you.

I was just perusing the thread about if your DT can be completely free and it boggles my mind all that people go through to keep disease out rather than just make the fish immune which is a thousand times less work and much easier on the fish. But maybe it's me because I am a simple Man.

 

[Areseebee]

I don't know why fish get disease at all, it's so much more work, they should just not have disease.

 

[WandaMay]

I have always tried to keep tanks as cheap as possible and as naturally as possible I learned through experience years ago with my FW tanks they were healthier when they aged and I did not constantly mess with them. Just good food and minimal maintenance I am a huge undergravel filter fan LOL I don't know why I never considered using one in SW. I also have to give credit to my 7 year old son, Dyllan regarding the worms. He has big plans to be a great caretaker. He is awaiting the cultures arruval like we would wait for a shipment of new corals. LOL He is also very excited to see how this new food helps his breeding guppy tank

 

[Paul B]

His guppies will breed like rabbits if they eat worms.

I don't know why fish get disease at all, it's so much more work, they should just not have disease.

Exactly!

 

[Brew12]

@Paul B Have you done any research or have any thoughts to the role natural fats play in fish immunity? As I continue to do research into fish immunity I keep coming across fats as being just as important as the bacteria.

 

[Paul B]

The only fat I researched and know about is fish oil which is a big part of a natural diet for fish. A fishes liver is about a fifth of it's weight and it is all oil. When a fish eats another fish it gets a big part of it's diet as oil. That is missing in dry foods because it goes bad and stinks. I take the stuff myself every day and I never had ich. I assume worms contain oil in their liver as do clams, Mysis and fish.
You can't beat live foods because you don't get fish oil in other foods which is why it comes in capsules, to protect it from oxygen that spoils it.
Fish don't really have any solid fat because they are cold blooded and it wouldn't circulate in their systems. Our solid fat liquefies in our warm bodies so it can circulate in our blood and clog our arteries. As far as I know fish don't get heart attacks, but I am guessing as I never saw one grab their chest and keel over.

Healthy fish are spawning fish and those eggs which are a large part of a fishes weight is almost all oil.

 

[mcarroll]

Fish health through proper nutrition
In Praise of Fish Oil (saltwatersmarts.com is now a R2R sponsor! when'd that happen?)

 

[Paul B]

Oh yeah, I wrote those.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Larry, that's why I use your food every day. I do add other things also, but that's just me, I am very old school, I am talking coal heated schools. I know about the bacteria you put in which is great.
Some of Larry's food also has blackworms in it and you know how much I love black worms.

I second that, I love all the good stuff thats in there.

 

[Paul B]

WandaMay, How far have you come on your trip to the coast? My boat is in the water and I have started collecting. I plan to go this week to my favorite tide pool for some amphipods which still have their winter coats on.
I got some grass shrimp this week for my mangrove tank. I can't put them in my reef because as soon as a fish sees them, they get scared and jump on to my lights and stick there. They hate when that happens.

See the pregnant grass shrimp in there with 6,127 babies under her belly.
I can collect hundreds of them around my boat. Great food but all my fish are to small to eat them.

 

[bif24701]

We as aquarists normally feed our fish something that we can buy commercially.

We normally buy some food that has a nice picture of a healthy, colorful fish on the package. I also use some commercially available food but besides that I feed something else at every meal. Most commercial frozen food is fine and provides a nice assortment of vitamins, minerals and trace elements that our fish need but they can't provide one very important part of the fishes diet. Maybe the most important part of it's diet.

That thing is living bacteria. Fish in the sea eat whole, fresh foods every day which contains the gut bacteria of it's meal. The living gut bacteria is very important for the fishes immune system and has been studied extensively in humans "and" now in fish. Virtually all commercially available frozen food would normally be devoid of this bacteria because the food needs to be sterile so it lasts long enough to sell and ship it.

Probiotics are added to some foods in the hope of replenishing some of this bacteria and I assume that would qualify as a better food than food without it. But IMO, that is not enough. Every day I also feed, along with a commercial food, live worms, clams and new born brine shrimp. My fish are immune from just about every disease and have been for decades but that is for another thread because I am tired of people calling me "lucky" as that is not my name.

I didn't make this up as I have been linking articles about it for a couple of years. My wife came upon this just today and it is about this subject. About half way through this short video they mention fish tanks. I think it is interesting.



http://www.openbiome.org/about-fmt/

what about all the live foods produced from a large refugium?

 

[mcarroll]

Quality of bacteria should be good, but....

How large is "large"?

And how much "food" can actually make it to the tank in a given day?

Not a bad idea at all, but how much could one rely on just that for food is a pretty open question.

Seems like as a food item they could be Omega3-challenged due to the lack of phytoplankton in our systems too.

Just thoughts.