The importance of nitrite measurements in a reef aquarium

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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@ReefJonas

can you post a full tank shot of your reef so we can finish up that troubleshoot, it won't take long. where you surface area exists in the system and the ratio compared to bioload will be evident in pics and it will not take long to chart out what your filter is doing when you add fish, feed a little more/typical reef changes we do...from a tank pic not a test reading.

we will be able to tell if not tracking out nitrite puts your system at risk from that tank picture showing the operating ratios for your biofilter. the actions you and I were discussing get shored up by that picture, that's what we use in non-nitrite tracking threads to turn out happy reef tanks. you may not agree with the assessment but I'd like to be able to add it to show how we do business in work threads that use other people's reef tanks and follow up to guide procedure. predictions are made about the system based on tank pictures, then months and years later we can follow up on actions taken.

the first detail noted will be whether or not a huge stack of rocks exists right in the middle of the current flow in the display

I want to be able to show by your picture updates how predictable biofilters will be even if we don't consider measurements posted. you can let me know if the predictions do not pan out.
 
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Lasse

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@brandon429 I asked you to stay out from this thread if you do not have any real result why a nitrification can stuck before the second stage or anything that in scientific way talk against it. If you want to show off for what you think is a new reefer (@ReefJonas ) - do that in a PM or in a new thread - not here. I´m sure that you can at least give him a good laugh when you try to talk sense to him.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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brandon429

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in prior responses your readers had posts directed to me and we were about to do what we've done for hundreds of combined pages.

dont mind a second exit at all.

keep my name out of future posts here on the matter.
 
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Lasse

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@brandon429 - You are only trolling - you do not want to understand what´s the meaning with this thread. You are insulting people that not have the same opinion as you. You are using master suppression techniques when you name dropping and use royal singularity (we instead for I). It does not contribute a thing to our understanding of the microbiological life in a reef system.

Is this a cycling thread or a nitrite testing thread. I found it, at the beginning to be an interesting read. Then aside from some humorous back and forths, I've lost the original idea.
I´m sorry - I should stop this much earlier - you can read all thing that´s important in the first post. It is a tread there I try to explain why I think that the use of nitrite testing is underestimated in reefing.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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brandon429

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Coincidentally, those who posted different cycle analyses than I did in work threads wound up here in unison.


Perhaps communication differences are causing misunderstandings, it really is best if I exit as we couldn't be farther apart on the matter. I tried to show times I thought measuring nitrite was interesting. it is ok if we disagree, its not trolling to disagree and then post direct work examples or article links to the contrary of your claims made about nitrite in the reef tank at any phase of maturity. if you'll quit calling me back in we can just chill out on the matter.
 
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brandon429

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misreads to at least consider.

i forgot I’d promised to exit, apologies. That new post stood out so much I thought it was worth study. Lasses thread is being given as source material to new cyclers still so we needed to see how mis testing affects cyclers. it means some degree of those responding to nitrite may be misunderstanding its impact/presence.
 
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Lasse

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Thank you @brandon429 that you get my attention on that thread so I was able to defeat your idiotic ideas in that thread too.

Sincerely Lasse
 

ReefJonas

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@ReefJonas

can you post a full tank shot of your reef so we can finish up that troubleshoot, it won't take long. where you surface area exists in the system and the ratio compared to bioload will be evident in pics and it will not take long to chart out what your filter is doing when you add fish, feed a little more/typical reef changes we do...from a tank pic not a test reading.

we will be able to tell if not tracking out nitrite puts your system at risk from that tank picture showing the operating ratios for your biofilter. the actions you and I were discussing get shored up by that picture, that's what we use in non-nitrite tracking threads to turn out happy reef tanks. you may not agree with the assessment but I'd like to be able to add it to show how we do business in work threads that use other people's reef tanks and follow up to guide procedure. predictions are made about the system based on tank pictures, then months and years later we can follow up on actions taken.

the first detail noted will be whether or not a huge stack of rocks exists right in the middle of the current flow in the display

I want to be able to show by your picture updates how predictable biofilters will be even if we don't consider measurements posted. you can let me know if the predictions do not pan out.
Hi @brandon429.
my most representative pics you can find at magazine advanced aquarist when my tank won that prize. Google my name is most fast way to get good material. At the moment I just have a newly set up tank that is not fully matured yet. I can send a pic of that 2 but see if I can add some from my old tank aswell. I have always been focused in biology these 25-30 years I have been in this hobby. So it’s really fascinating.
for me it’s not even hard to just accept that I definitely want a good nitrogen cycle in all steps before I consider my system as mature.

regards
Jonas
 

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Little c big D

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Hi @brandon429.
my most representative pics you can find at magazine advanced aquarist when my tank won that prize. Google my name is most fast way to get good material. At the moment I just have a newly set up tank that is not fully matured yet. I can send a pic of that 2 but see if I can add some from my old tank aswell. I have always been focused in biology these 25-30 years I have been in this hobby. So it’s really fascinating.
for me it’s not even hard to just accept that I definitely want a good nitrogen cycle in all steps before I consider my system as mature.

regards
Jonas
That's a beautiful tank. If I may. To the overall topic. If you're willing to not test nitrite because of its non or low aparent impact. So be it. I'm not intelligent enough for this, however learning is my greatest gift from reefing. I think testing nitrite helps us understand the nitrification process. We should all know how things work. @brandon429 I'd like to say this. I disagree with your delivery (respectfully) I think we should test. And teach others to test for knowledge. What we should be delivering to people is an understanding that it's not a panic situation or a place to need to spend money on useless additives. The nitrification process is the beginning of life in our aquaria. Let's teach that!
 

brandon429

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Jonas that's a great job, really great job

I assure you that nitrite being positive or negative when you added the very first forms of life to that tank didn't matter, meaning if you added life when ammonia was controlled and never tested for nitrite, the tank would be just as beautiful.
waiting for nitrite control in a cycle didn't earn that great forest, great skill in reefing sure did though.

the most important takeaway to know in relation to those pictures above is that nitrite testing or factoring had zero, zero impact in the outcome.

we are up to page twenty now in my thread of reef tanks starting out who never respond to nitrite. most were nitrite-positive but under full control of ammonia when we starting stocking, their updates are posted.

some are very nice like that one above, see how nitrite is neutral to the end result?
 
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brandon429

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p.s. that one may look slightly nicer than all other examples I can drum up but we've got the bulk numbers that's for sure ~

keep track over the coming two years the number of cycles that will be using the updated cycling method where nitrite is never tracked. I predict it will outpace the old ways of factoring nitrite, by 2023.

we will completely erase nitrite factoring from determining an ethical start date in reefing, the date someone can add life into a new display tank and know it is not being harmed or burned in any way whatsoever. It isn't required to test for, or respond to nitrite levels in a display reef tank in order to make it turn out to its full potential. it is not required to own a nitrite test in reefing, and no decisions on procedure would be made around nitrite in a display tank reef.
 
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Soren

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I'm glad this thread came up. It is really helping me understand the points/counter-points of concepts about nitrite and the discussion on the other thread.
From what I understand, nitrite may not be very toxic in marine environments, but there are still uses for its measurement beyond toxicity. I'll be studying this more in-depth.
Very interesting thread to consider, @Lasse !
 

brandon429

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agreed thats a great summary of matters.

our hobby has had thirty years in dedicated adherence to it

now we get to test the changes, unfactoring it. evolution in practice. if things turn out bad now or in the near future, this practice of ignoring it will stop.
 
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That's a beautiful tank. If I may. To the overall topic. If you're willing to not test nitrite because of its non or low aparent impact. So be it. I'm not intelligent enough for this, however learning is my greatest gift from reefing. I think testing nitrite helps us understand the nitrification process. We should all know how things work. @brandon429 I'd like to say this. I disagree with your delivery (respectfully) I think we should test. And teach others to test for knowledge. What we should be delivering to people is an understanding that it's not a panic situation or a place to need to spend money on useless additives. The nitrification process is the beginning of life in our aquaria. Let's teach that!

Measurement of anything can be a great learning tool.

My problem is with assertions that nitrite is important to measure it because it must be zero or very low. That assertion is not supported by data, and serves to teach incorrect info rather than support learning.
 

MnFish1

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Measurement of anything can be a great learning tool.

My problem is with assertions that nitrite is important to measure it because it must be zero or very low. That assertion is not supported by data, and serves to teach incorrect info rather than support learning.
Arent there 2 different situations? 1 being managing a cycle? 2 being monitoring a tank?

I think there MIGHT be utility in seeing a nitrite bump in an established tank as a cause of concern (that something else is going on) - as compared to toxicity itself?

IMHO its true - Nitrite should be 0 or nearly 0. If it is not - it implies other problems in the tank/biology of the tank.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Arent there 2 different situations? 1 being managing a cycle? 2 being monitoring a tank?

I think there MIGHT be utility in seeing a nitrite bump in an established tank as a cause of concern (that something else is going on) - as compared to toxicity itself?

IMHO its true - Nitrite should be 0 or nearly 0. If it is not - it implies other problems in the tank/biology of the tank.

It could be useful to detect a change, just like using ORP to detect a change.

Is that useful? Maybe, but I had a ORP probe and I just stopped using it since I didn't find in sufficiently useful.
 

MnFish1

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It could be useful to detect a change, just like using ORP to detect a change.

Is that useful? Maybe, but I had a ORP probe and I just stopped using it since I didn't find in sufficiently useful.
Yes - agreed - I dumped mine as well LOL. But - with nitrite - as I think @Lasse has said 'we don't know', so it might be to early to just 'dump it' as a test. Maybe the next big controversy will be 'should we ditch the ORP - because no-one uses it'.

What I've learned in this hobby is that there are lots of things I don't 'use' everyday - but when there is a signal, there is usually a reason - and I try to act on it.
 
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Lasse

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It could be useful to detect a change, just like using ORP to detect a change.

Is that useful? Maybe, but I had a ORP probe and I just stopped using it since I didn't find in sufficiently useful.
I use a ORP probe and there is few things I can knit to that in the DT tank. But the ORP probe in my anaerobic part of my reversed DSB is the one that manage the control of my denitrification, flow and addition of organic carbon.

IME - the nitrification cycle is one of the most sensitive bacterial processes that happens in a tank and in this - the second step is the most sensitive compared with the first. I use my nitrite measurements in order to monitor the health of my microbial ecosystems and it have give me early warnings a couple of times. One event is a small overdose of organic carbon that makes a shift from nitrifying organism into heterotrophs instead and show up in rising NO2

ORP in open water is not especially useful if you do not use a strong oxidizing agent as O3 or H2O2
The nitrification cycle and its health is much more significant to measure because if the nitrification process will be disturb in a working aquarium - something bad is uprising - IMO

Sincerely Lasse
 
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