The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

infinite0180

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A couple of questions...

How do you recommend using h2o2 on a newly cycling tank like mine? Wait till after its fully cycled? Dosing the entire tank at the first signs of algea? Or just spot trating when necessary?
 
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brandon429

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Only spot treating. By lifting up the rock affected and cleaning it off outside of the tank

Peroxide doesn't have to be permanent, it's merely early cheat guiding. I don't have to use it on my rocks anymore, but at one time it saved them by killing typical early growths. Not everyone wants to use this method and other ways exist to kill algae, for me it's simply fast and efficient.

good pics and strategies we did in different tanks:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reef2reef-pest-algae-challenge-thread-hydrogen-peroxide.187042/
 
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brandon429

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Torture to cycle, misbehaving group A epoxy gravel substrate + fake plants (yes I retro 80s this lol) tower of doom.

Did the cycle offend me? Yes, it misbehaved and wouldn't quit going cloudy as I rushed to impart my will on it. Then magically, on week three of big water changes and tetra freshwater bottle bac once a week, it stopped clouding. All the water changes and damage to my laminate is now 80% worth it, she's the tower of doom.
IMG_20180405_203515619.jpg


IMG_20180426_190747612_HDR.jpg



3 weeks submersion. Twenty neons,a gourami, beta, two hatchet fish. And a huge filter stuck on my wall, heh. At night when the tower emits it's frequency glow into the room the worth it increases to 97%. I'll get creative on the power cable later, the cycle alone was offensive so glad it's done, and that I got a fifty gallon brute trashcan setup.

I didn't get onto nuances of tall tanks vs wide ones for optimal fish happiness, tower effect comes first. These petsmart rescues could have wound up in a seven year olds nano tank with no cycle at all lol, when polled after installation in vertical amazon they all agreed hanging out with brandon429 and eating reef food to be a fair-handed acceptable alternative

Neon tetras go berserk over reef nutrition Roe eggs.
 
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NY_Caveman

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Nice! Does the Betta bother the Gouramis? Sometimes they go after similar looking fish. Especially if they both tend to hang out near the top.
 
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brandon429

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Nice call female hmoon beta doesn't like gourami, and, he's too food assertive I need that mass given to tetras instead. Gourami going back lol but I can't catch him just yet, he dives down from net so I have it taped to a long dowel and this is why every dive is min sixteen ounces of water dripping down the back onto the floor heh

No matter how careful, no matter how strict the agreed upon rules that water cannot spill, a tower tank equals floor damage why doesn't Tanked show that on tv he he

I really hate love the tower lol thanks for checking it out

Female beta nice to every other fish but that g
 
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brandon429

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https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/page-7


Post #125

I get to ask Dr Tim Hovanec about the microbiology of bottle bac, and how marine specific filtration bacteria handle vectoring in nature. I’ve wanted to speak with him for a decade now, neat.




Read Dr Tim’s description there of bottle bacteria and see how well it fares with our take in this thread, that’s neat of him to post at R2R
 
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brandon429

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Bump

I'm reading about stalled cycles recently in our new tank forum


Cycles never ever stall. Test kits sure do

All tanks cycle on the same time frame relative to boosts used or not. its easy to cycle all aquaria without testing for a single parameter due to set laws of microbiology and known timing of events outside our control.

Tell us how your arrangement is and we will tell you how many days underwater it needs to cycle, put away the test kits because it never fails.
Confirmation or counter finding testing is always relished.


Microbiology is predictable across industries, aquariums never break rules of microbiology only low level test kits make it seem that way


Test kit errors make things appear delicate, but filtration bacteria are the toughest organisms in our tanks above all we house. For proof, someone need only drain their whole reef for seven days and then refill.


Five more days post refill you'll have nitrate as proof while everything else is dead save for a few bugs in the rock.

Bacteria are grossly and by far collectively the strongest community in our tanks, immune to all but medication events. They remain viable for days, weeks and months even after draining, depending on biofilm presentation and in that they're literally bulletproof. Our thread is a study in cycle biology and knowing which type of cycle to use for a given type of substrate.
 
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brandon429

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So very proud to have this thread linked to our rule breakers/microbiology thread.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/might-start-a-nano-15gal-column-need-advice.429907/#post-4990720

New current fallow sustain record, three years.

Three years water only, no feed, life sustained as no surprise.




No feed, only topoff

pods survive and by absolutely steadfast rule of benthic association, wherever time/submersion/motile or accreted benthic animals exist, so do filtration bacteria, these biosystems never ever uncouple due to any external factors others than extreme temps sustained no home will ever see, or true medication events, or extreme real drying (don't forget our prior link about live rock placed on a shelf in a dark closet for two months passing a digestion test when rehydrated, emersion isn't necessarily desiccation)


For refresher, here are things that do not kill your established filtration bacteria:

Withholding feed for as many years as you'd like to test.


Household changes in temp and even salinity to extreme degrees... the populations simply select for euryhaline tolerant species as evaporation continues...salinity shifts aren't highly medicating events, they're population -shifting- events and with hydration back to .023 they readapt fast. Perhaps forty hours fast, someone test these predictions n post

Altering any param you can test for regarding nutrients won't retroscale your biofilter.


This means when you pull fish to go fallow in a tank you don't have to concern about bacterial recoup time, that's been a misnomer in reefkeeping and combined hesitation behaviors eventually grow into people's full blown invaded reef tanks. It's ok to feed your corals and shrimps in the fallowing tank, but the bac never needed your help even at the beginning

How we view bacteria shapes our care and procedural boundaries; hesitation amounts to being invaded, but being able to detail any cycle at any time means you can command any reef tank to run, and comply. The microbiology of cycling thread aims to show the unique and secretly repeatable true nature of marine bacteria in our tanks... to show that once established your cycling bac are the toughest, not weakest, animals you farm. So get to killing your algae and escaping the horrible advice that is uglies phase reefing, you are free to act without a recycle due to the tolerances we show in extreme case collection.
 
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Dj City

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I've started my test on the sand that has sat dormant for over 3 years.

This test is from a tank that was abandoned over 3 years ago.
I left the water sand and rocks in place. I removed all filtration and flow. Only thing I did to this tank was top it off when it evaporated to much and got on my nerves.

20180803_055002.jpg
20180803_055100.jpg


For the bacteria test, I drained the tank and removed the sand to a 5 gallon tank. I rinsed the sand with tap water (about 45 minutes) until it ran clear removing all old gunk from it.

I then added saltwater to the tank and let it sit overnight.

15340988683767552888896457807987.jpg


I am now testing for ammonia using 2 test kit's (API and Seachem).

API
15340970459602506228824613804893.jpg


Seachem
15340973023171519756075547154099.jpg


I will add ammonium chloride to get an ammonia reading.

15340975518484605863392807965082.jpg
 
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Dj City

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I added 1 drop of ammonium chloride to the tank, waited 5 minutes and tested again with extremely slight increase in ammonia.

15340992554613784766594880175557.jpg


I will add one more drop and test again.
 
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brandon429

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Thank you tons and tons for that documentation

Your live rock looks amazing, even the coralline held live all that time? Wonderful, I don’t think I’d ever let go of that live rock it’s the long haul variety
 

Dj City

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Thank you tons and tons for that documentation

Your live rock looks amazing, even the coralline held live all that time? Wonderful, I don’t think I’d ever let go of that live rock it’s the long haul variety

I had to kill the live rock :(
That rock had a LOT of life but a good amount of that life was NOT beneficial to a clean thriving Nano tank.

I'm going to wind up using it in the rebuild.

I put the rock in a 5gal bucket filled with 1.1 vinegar and water and let it sit with a powerhead for 2 days.
I then rinsed it, brushed all the gook and old algae off and put it back in the bucket and filled it with 1.1 bleach and water and let that sit for 24 hours.
I then rinsed the rock again and it is now sitting in the sun since (and rain) yesterday.
I will keep the rocks outside for a few days, then I will rinse them again and soak them in RO/DI water with Seachem Prime for at least 48 hours.
After that, I will soak them in Saltwater with a heater and powerhead and seed them with an existing rock from my 110gal tank.

I don't know how long I should leave them soaking in the saltwater while seeding with existing live rock.
 
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Dj City

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So...
Im trying to understand. Especially since I'm setting up a new tank.

Im going with caribsea Arag alive sand and some media (small amount of live rock from my existing tank)

I will be adding cured rock for my scape as well with no life on it at all.

How should I cycle my new tank and how long should it take?
 

Dj City

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Oh,
I also have Dr Tim's over and only.

This is a great thread and it has taught me a lot but also has me a bit confused on what I should be doing to get this new build started correctly.

I will recap what I have and where I'm at.

Clean, empty 15gal colum tank.

Ammonium chloride (for the 3 year old sand bac test)

10lbs CaribSea arag-alive sand (still in bag)

About 20or so lbs of Clean (I hope) rock that came from the tank before teardown.
Rock was soaked in vinegar/water for 2 days, rinsed and then soaked in bleach/water for 24 hours, rinsed again and out in the sun and rain since yesterday.
Plan to soak rock in RO/DI water with Seachem Prime for at least 48 hours, then soak them in Saltwater with a heater and powerhead and seed them with an existing rock from my 110gal tank. (I don't know how long I should do this)

I also have a LOT of seachem Matrix that I will be adding to the HOB refugium.

I will be adding chaeto from existing sump to HOB refugium when ready (whenever that will be)

Please advise.
 

Dj City

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Results!

API test sucks but...

20180814_182107.jpg


This is 48 hours later.

Per API, ammonia dropped from about 0.50 to under 0.25.

Seachem now shows 0 ammonia where 48 hours ago it was showing 0.15

Hope this helps and I hope I can get clarification on my earlier questions.
 
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brandon429

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Yes it did, but only cuz I didn't get those FINE updates heheh

you did it, I thank you tons. I just got this most recent update, it never flagged me on your others after Id built up a massive set of eyes watching you take time, and these extra steps.

I can clearly see the movement we predicted and discussed, you have skip cycle live rock, and the longest fallow test Ive personally seen. You beat the one I linked from dandelion, nano-reef.com, two year fallow test. well done :)

thanks for your reminder or id have missed altogether! this may not seem like we're capitalizing on you taking the time to prove this, but gimme years and the # of eyes Ill aim back on the experiment and your thread will push through this science.

you are supporting our thread with microbiological proof that humans do not control the life and death of nitrifiers by what they give, or withhold, regarding feed (ammonia) where hydration remained.

You could have gone 14 years :)

heckuva test that'll be.
 
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brandon429

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Along with missing the updates somehow i just read about soaking the live rock. That's the only part I'd clarify, this rock you showed above is ready for use. To soak it in fw begins to undo the maturation it could kill the coralline

It's ready for use, has it been dipped? The new sand would be rinsed so it's cloudless, then put in tank. Then this fine rock above set in, all ready


If you added rock that is cured that means it's been underwater a long time and it's likely cycled. It's ok to test it all for oxidation ability just like above, and any new rocks added that the LfS said was cured this very same test above will confirm or deny



If they're not cycled, then the rules for group A rock cycling apply to them from page one here
 

Jason boles

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I have enjoyed this thread and read it several times!!

I recently started my 15 gallon. After reading your article I decided to go with dead rock, doc Tim’s bottle bac, and ammonia.

After building my aquascape and seeing how cheap the live rock rubble was at the local fish store, I said what the hay, and just purchased 2 lbs of live rock rubble.

After installing my aquascape I littered it with the live rock and kept reading up and learning. I figured even with the live rock I would take my time and my ultimate goal was to move it to the back empty chamber and just let it roll with some monthly cleanings.

While researching I decided that I want a larger bio load than I originally planned. I wanted to do something similar to nano sapiens 10 gallon, but I also wanted the leapord puffer like tinyreef.... lol

So I decided to add the chemipure, filter floss, and purigen that I had purchased to my media basket and get a skimmer.

Now on to my issue... I now plan on removing the live rock, except for maybe 1 or 2 pieces for some sand bed rocks.... will I loose a majority of my filtration when I do so?

I have been adding my dr Tim’s, and also added copepods and phytoplankton this week along with 2 snails.

Also I am getting and orangey brown dusting along with some green hair on the live rocks and such. I’m not really concerned about it. I have nothing but snails so I am figuring once I start filling it up it will go away.

I will be blowing my sand weekly and cleaning the bed. How do you clean the bed without blowing crushed rocks everywhere??

Should I be worried about removing my live rock??

If you want more info check out the build thread, or just ask!

Thanks in advance.

9D769982-6230-4452-B572-5133A30EFBC2.jpeg
 

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