The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

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brandon429

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thanks tons for posting, that's perfect for our thread pls upload any pics too that's the best.

Any sand you have in the tank even with no rocks would support fish, and corals laying all over the bottom 100% coverage just fine. A tank with nothing in it and only bac on the walls isn't enough surface area, but any form of rock or sand, or both, sure is so no matter what you do with # pounds of live rock your filter will run. Go easy on fish, wait till the tank matures to add them (most say to add them soon, we digress) then you can't go wrong.

your pic is great, that tank can handle an entry bioload if we go easy on fish a while


they need to be completing quarantine/fallow periods anyway before going into anyone's reef so that method of fish disease control is also a nice indicator of when new reefs are ready to receive fish


pretty much any increment of truly live rock, the kind with coralline and animals stuck to it, classic group B, will run your reef and you can not only transfer it among tanks safely without losing its power, you can starve it and expose it to air a really long time and the bacteria still don't die. In many ways this thread is about photographing ways we don't follow anyones rules about live rock... we simply post what they'll tolerate. Strive to keep the rock basically wet/sprayed with saltwater any creative way while working with rock and you can't go wrong.

this includes actions like lifting out that rock and burning/scraping/guiding off any noncompliant algae before it takes over. that rock can sit on your kitchen cabinet for 30 mins easy and not die, I expose my entire reef tank drained to the air for that long routinely. I don't use fish, so that is an ok test for my tank, its what the tides inflict on real reefs as well.

we're really not doing anything secret with live rocks here, nature handles them roughly. Its only aquarists and their books/authors who were concerned about live rock emersion in the early times of reefing materials and instruction making. now that we know nature handles them roughly, that gives us the ability to arrange the tank any way we want and access that rock in any way we need to guide it, this makes an aquarium live forever.


If I could convey the most important trick I know in reefing to show thanks for you posting, it would be the secret to zero lifespan reefing.
How to make sure your reef never dies, biologically. it will live forever at the microbial level, at the purple live rock and sponges and corals and some shrimp level. fish come and go, shrimps and crabs die and get bought for the reef tank in cycle. but live rock, live rock animals, and corals, those should be living forever once bought and they will if we force that to occur by specifically keeping our tank clean in the right ways.



its not that some reefs you setup might live using this way, its that 100% of reef tanks setup will live this way and the cost to ensure that is more work than normal at the start, until maturity sets the cruise control. we know the drumbeat to success for a group of rocks, water, sand and corals and associated life, and the secret is a way of thinking from us its not about needing certain machinery to keep our reefs going (although machinery and automation reduces work/fine w me)

So you mentioned the sandbed, before you even use it, *or in your next big cleaning run in the future* it should be rinsed to total perfection per this thread below:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...ead-aka-one-against-many.230281/#post-2681445



the secret to making a reef that will never age and die (with continued guidance) is to know that direct access is the key to lifespan. Not giving the system any other physical option other than to run as you already know it will. That big sandbed thread is about making reefs detritus free, that's because detritus is the source of tank aging. Detritus is whats dangerous to have in the sandbed if the power goes out, because mud/waste/detritus supports orders more amnts of bacteria than normal, and they use up all the oxygen quickly in an outage, or pumps off scenario, than a tank with no sandbed. per the thread, an occasionally rip cleaned sandbed is totally safe.

the thing you want to avoid is building that tank like it is, and letting it go pretty much as normal rules would have you do. Being hands off, avoiding upsets, thats not best for nano reefing. it will do fine like that a while, quite a while, but slowly that sandbed is storing waste (and if you stirred it, it would cloud to prove it) and we keep buying animals and corals. we eventually bring in an invader that isn't there now, but on top of a stored-waste condition, and it blooms and takes over the tank.


the opposite of that condition is: starting with clean sand, cleaning it deeply occasionally, inspecting your rocks outside the tank and coral surfaces occasionally to pick off bits of invader that may be anchoring, all forms of direct gardening on the actual substrates.

lifespan in reefing is NOT about testing the water and responding. Its about making sure the tank doesn't store up detritus long term in ways it will cloud in the tank if we disturb things. If you simply take a nano reef apart every once in a while and blast clean it, then you can feed it like mad in the interim and pack it full of hungry corals that never die, never get disease, because they're well fed and in high redox water. due to our work, and detritus removal, not due to fancy chemistry and supporting equipment.



reefing is NOT about arranging a set of living/expensive/rare/costly items and sitting back and seeing what happens. well it was, in the 90s

what happens is full on invasion and corals that sometimes live, sometimes die, some reefs get cyano, some reefs get bryopsis, and the tanks are controlling all these problem reef owners.

When someone gets lucky with hands off reefing, and after they've lost a few tanks unnecessarily to hone their craft of guesswork, they then publish that information so thousands of people in turn can copy a guess system and cycle through hundreds of various losses before honing a hard-to-replicate craft, of placing things in boxes and seeing what happens.

1% of tankers out there simply clean their reefs in some creative way better than all the rest.

they do -nothing-fancy

they simply work. and the reef lives. and by arranging your reef in certain ways, things like power outages and minor temp insults when you forget to turn the heater on in the winter, don't wipe your tank. Hope this gives you the most powerful start you can have. My one gallon reef is twelve years old due solely to these arrangements, the metabolism of a one gallon reef is orders faster than any other reef, 12 at one gallon is equivalent to a multi decade old 100 gallon easily. small reefs register everything faster than larger ones.

all of the material held in this thread about cycling and in the sand rinse thread is the basis for why the reefbowl has no lifespan, it cannot die of old age as long as someone does the export occasionally. water changes are not total export, having a sandbed that passes a drop test sure is. the thing most likely to kill my reef is a nerfball or some form of elbow insult accidentally, it has the footpring of a coffee cup.
 
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I am ready to put in the work. It’s the fun part to me!!

I read that article from your post and washed the crap out of my sand :)

So I am gonna leave the live rock in for thirty days and then remove it and only my original dead rock will be left and I should have no issues from what I understand.

Also, speaking of Quarentine, that tank got the same treatment. Has a simple HOB filter that I placed a spong in and then out live rock everywhere.

Am I ready to start my 72 day, forever!, QT period on my first fish, or should I wait? I’m also going to eventually remove the rocks as I put in fish so they do not get contaminated.

I would like to start the QT timer :)

514EADF8-F8FB-4014-95E2-48001BD81630.jpeg
 
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how to know when you can add fish to any reef tank after cycling: two conditions must be met

1. Study this thread, and know + be clear on application the stated steps for quarantine:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/s...ive-been-with-qt-and-i-still-have-ich.443475/

2. Add fish as part of the very last additions to your reef, not the earliest, if you want to employ some secrets of success. That means nearly all initial coral stocking complete, grown over frag bases starting to lock, and you already know your own tanks variables regarding algae control and cyano control needs. There is no algae invasion when you add fish, because you've hand guided it all out before fish waste causes it to quadruple

Fish over nutrify too many new systems, the keeper holds on in reaction while frustration grows. But if you'll absolutely wait months to add fish, because other feeds sustain in the interim just fine for the system, and complete those qt steps above, you are duplicating the unique order of operations we apply in the mb of cycling thread. don't think for one second if I had a reef able to keep fish I'd go any further past the normal 76 ish fallow days, I'd want my fish.

But in knowing they'll spurn algae growth the 35% would be employed to just cheat it all back to clean... this is unfair reefing and nobody should store 35% peroxide in their home :) it's an unfair advantage I can comment on, but not recommend in good faith. 35 makes people immune to reefing rules in an unfair manner, it is only to be wielded by the invasion-jaded wearing fixed eye protection.
 
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DJ how's your setup, that aged rock doing ok
 

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I wound up not using any of it.
It was all too large for what I had in mind.

Nano front view.jpg


This is what I wound up building with dry rock rubble.
 
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perfect. now you control all hitchikers for sure, clean start. you got great testing information off that rock for sure :)
 

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Brandon429

I'm new here and I've been reading many of your posts - they're so informative so I have to say thank you for always contributing!

I have a question - please be patient with me as I'm new to this hobby.

My LFS is selling Haitian live rock that looks much like the barren rock you posted. They say they're cured because they usually sit in their tanks for about a month or so. If I were to buy their live rock which they claim is cured, should I refrain from using a raw shrimp to cycle my tank? Should I just put the rock in with my live sand and salt water and test for ammonia levels a week or so later? I know from reading this thread, I shouldn't have to test but that's with a full cycle. I'm just not sure if a rock is already "cured" what that means in terms of my cycling.

Thanks
 
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hey great, I feel they've conveyed enough info about the live rock that you do have that option of shrimp cycling, since that rock isn't laden with animals like heavy group B rock. the fanworms, coralline, pods, sponges et al

if they're literally setting dry rocks in water a month with no boosters like ammonia and bottle bac, then in 30 days a sw self cycles usually just partially meaning a light biofilm layer vs a well-established one...for true unassisted cycling we like to wait longer / closer to 90 days submerged and then the rocks can be tested for the hallmark of cycle completion: ability to digest 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours or thereabouts.

if they've added bottle bac or any form of boosting like ammonia or feed, then in 30 days of sitting in water they really are likely cycled its ok to either test them using ammonium chloride and a good tester, or, since no rush, can bring home and give another few weeks stewing around in the new tank just to add more time.

at any time, if you buy dr Tims liquid ammonium chloride drops and a hq tester, you can know if any set of rocks is ready by dosing the water to 1 or 2 ppm, and then checking on a hq ammonia tester 24 hours later for any drop in levels. unfinished cycle w have the same amounts next day.
 

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hey great, I feel they've conveyed enough info about the live rock that you do have that option of shrimp cycling, since that rock isn't laden with animals like heavy group B rock. the fanworms, coralline, pods, sponges et al

if they're literally setting dry rocks in water a month with no boosters like ammonia and bottle bac, then in 30 days a sw self cycles usually just partially meaning a light biofilm layer vs a well-established one...for true unassisted cycling we like to wait longer / closer to 90 days submerged and then the rocks can be tested for the hallmark of cycle completion: ability to digest 2 ppm ammonia in 24 hours or thereabouts.

if they've added bottle bac or any form of boosting like ammonia or feed, then in 30 days of sitting in water they really are likely cycled its ok to either test them using ammonium chloride and a good tester, or, since no rush, can bring home and give another few weeks stewing around in the new tank just to add more time.

at any time, if you buy dr Tims liquid ammonium chloride drops and a hq tester, you can know if any set of rocks is ready by dosing the water to 1 or 2 ppm, and then checking on a hq ammonia tester 24 hours later for any drop in levels. unfinished cycle w have the same amounts next day.

Thanks, Brandon! I'll be sure to make a progress thread later once I get going. Very excited to start this!
 
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yes thanks for contributing do upload pics for us if you can, or any subsequent testing as the hallmark of our thread here is using visual ID where available or the known history of the live rock's submersion schedule to be able to know where a cycle is...we don't have to rely on testers that range greatly. Rarely will a LFS outright mislead, if they say its been cured it likely is./
 

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I was reading through this thread, I have some media cycling in my 12g cube for 29g cube I picked up. I am a little confused on the info. Do you believe it will take months for the new media to seed in the established tank? I was overwhelmed by the amount of information lol I will be used 23lbs of dry rock in the new tank and 25 lbs of live sand rinsed clean like in the 12g cube.
 
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https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fishless-cycle.467575/


Does running an algae turf scrubber boost a cycle, slow or stall it via competition, or have a neutral impact

The answer is staunchly one of those three.


Questions:

If any large tankers installed nine extra canister filters right now, side by side, and ran them for half a year, would your tank die?

What if after half a year, you pulled them all at once with no ramp down, would the ammonia spike and kill the tank?


Are the nine canister filters fully cycled and able after half a year in your tank, or are they sterile?

If they're cycled, and producing nitrate, and eating ammonia after six months of merely installing them in line, how did your tank ever live without them? How can they possibly meet their input demands if no feeding changes occurred in your tank? How did the same bioloading you keep end up feeding nine extra filters?

How many canister filters does one have to add, such that instantly removing them is detrimental in the above scenario or such that later additions cannot self cycle? (given no change in bioload or feeding in the display)

The answers reveal our concepts about what bacteria require from us to thrive, and in those concepts we make the care and procedural boundaries for our tanks.
 
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Cycling based on nitrite testing, problems and delays. We cover nitrite testing on page 1 post 1



https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/my-new-tank-cycling-stall.469873/page-4


That cycle is being advised by experts. I'll now ask them to join my test thread below


The tank above being cycled solely off nitrite and not any other factor. His tank has been full and cycling for thirty days now.
 
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https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/t...logy-lets-collect-and-compare-answers.472919/


All readers here, please take that post survey, add your thoughts on what happens to new canister filters you plumb into an imaginary system where three fish provide the total ammonia for the life of the system. The heart of the quiz is simply asking what happens regarding filter bacteria when you add new surface area but you don't increase bioloading / does the new hydrated surface area cycle or stay sterile? If cycled, is it non filtration bac or filtration bac? How did they get extra feed to add new mass if the keeper didn't add more fish?
 

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Brandon,

I added my ammonia source, and a bacteria source on 10/7, so I am about halfway through your ~30 day window using 120lbs of pure dry rock (group A), barebottom. No rush to be honest. What I find interesting is you recommend adding the corals first, and just feeding those corals (reef energy, etc) before adding in fish.

Now, here's my question, I'm SPS, and you always hear/read that you need a minimum of 6 months before you can add sps corals, especially with dry rock. Now, I have no idea if that's internet myth or fact....and it's a question i've asked. Add fish or corals first to a newly set up reef tank.
 
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If someone has quarantined fish ready to go and you 76 day the cycle (for fallow reasons) then you can use fish early on, the reason I don’t recommend it is because dry rock systems are

Notorious

notorious

for welcoming your first year+ with all sorts of removable uglies. Fish power feed the uglies by being the largest source of consistent nutrients... so I like to handguide the system into compliance and have aged in place uglies-excluding surfaces (coralline and coral) before a light fish load begins. I hate adding fertilizer to a situation where people don’t want to hand guide (work) the system clean, your system is large and access will be tricky. Keep the rocks accessible where you can lift them out for cleaning, and, I might even forego a sandbed altogether until a year or two into the game, add it to the semi matured and compliant system, the sandbed houses and feeds uglies by housing fish waste.

Using group B/purple live rock is where I get all my skip cycle gold. I input sps on day one of some of my picos bc the rocks were already a hundred years old :) with feed ready to throw out to corals. Today’s feed offerings / retail make up for lack of live rock diversity, so if a few new sps frags are to be used at day 30 let me know how it goes, what you feed etc. the system will be able to handle their bioloading and small feed command. Change as much water as you can in 30-40 days so you are removing that initial metabolite blasting, we start clean with no wastewater only to head off algae issue.

Sps into a dry rock system, new, is really pushing it and your feed and light quality need to be exceptional and spot-fed routinely imo. bleaching from too bright too white lighting (needs lengthy ramp up) and not enough feed is the risk to sps in a group A system.

I know people use dry rock to control hitchhikers but that feed web for delicate sps really takes a while to establish. I break all my 6 mo/sps rules by using only the finest group b live rock available. Your tank can take an entry level loading about the middle of November especially since you’ve used boosts, but disease protocols should take over first in my opinion.

I would definitely add, and sustain, corals first but they’d not be the pristine sps for a little while. lps and zos and candy corals and the like will do, but they’re going to require hand feeding targeting and strong willingness to change water preemptively or they’ll starve out, in the late 90s everyone used live rock so coral growth/feed access wasn’t really an issue, the uglies meant GHA issues....now with dry setups we’re taking much longer to be able to naturally support corals via missing food webs and our uglies includes organisms I struggle daily to identify on challenge posts, be ready for intercepts. Def no fish early on is my reco, corals first. I never did add any fish to my system :) it’s fallow for good
 
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One way I hope our thread assisted your cycle is that we don’t need to know what levels of ammonia or nitrite you attained, page one has an estimation calc which is plenty good. Or your bottle directions are good enough

If you put in -any- and you didn’t input so much that it’s bathroom cleaner water :) then the concoction stews into a biofilter in 30-40 days * if you change out all the wastewater and start clean before adding some corals.

A testless cycle is so convenient compared to: NO! My nitrite hit seven. I’ll be cycling till Christmas now...
 

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Brandon,

I added my ammonia source, and a bacteria source on 10/7, so I am about halfway through your ~30 day window using 120lbs of pure dry rock (group A), barebottom. No rush to be honest. What I find interesting is you recommend adding the corals first, and just feeding those corals (reef energy, etc) before adding in fish.

Now, here's my question, I'm SPS, and you always hear/read that you need a minimum of 6 months before you can add sps corals, especially with dry rock. Now, I have no idea if that's internet myth or fact....and it's a question i've asked. Add fish or corals first to a newly set up reef tank.

Totally myth IMO. I have added across on day 7 with dry sand and "live" rock. 6 months is wayyyyy excessive in my opinion. You can always add a bacterial starter to get it going if you are worried about nutrient spikes. One strategy is just not doing a "heavy" daily feeding, go lighter to build up your filtration while not spiking nutrients.

Brandon will probably say its an inevitable disaster to use dry rock, which is totally not true. There is nothing wrong with dry rock or a clean start. I dont believe he keeps acros
 

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If someone has quarantined fish ready to go and you 76 day the cycle (for fallow reasons) then you can use fish early on, the reason I don’t recommend it is because dry rock systems are

Notorious

notorious

for welcoming your first year+ with all sorts of removable uglies. Fish power feed the uglies by being the largest source of consistent nutrients... so I like to handguide the system into compliance and have aged in place uglies-excluding surfaces (coralline and coral) before a light fish load begins. I hate adding fertilizer to a situation where people don’t want to hand guide (work) the system clean, your system is large and access will be tricky. Keep the rocks accessible where you can lift them out for cleaning, and, I might even forego a sandbed altogether until a year or two into the game, add it to the semi matured and compliant system, the sandbed houses and feeds uglies by housing fish waste.

Using group B/purple live rock is where I get all my skip cycle gold. I input sps on day one of some of my picos bc the rocks were already a hundred years old :) with feed ready to throw out to corals. Today’s feed offerings / retail make up for lack of live rock diversity, so if a few new sps frags are to be used at day 30 let me know how it goes, what you feed etc. the system will be able to handle their bioloading and small feed command. Change as much water as you can in 30-40 days so you are removing that initial metabolite blasting, we start clean with no wastewater only to head off algae issue.

Sps into a dry rock system, new, is really pushing it and your feed and light quality need to be exceptional and spot-fed routinely imo. bleaching from too bright too white lighting (needs lengthy ramp up) and not enough feed is the risk to sps in a group A system.

I know people use dry rock to control hitchhikers but that feed web for delicate sps really takes a while to establish. I break all my 6 mo/sps rules by using only the finest group b live rock available. Your tank can take an entry level loading about the middle of November especially since you’ve used boosts, but disease protocols should take over first in my opinion.

I would definitely add, and sustain, corals first but they’d not be the pristine sps for a little while. lps and zos and candy corals and the like will do, but they’re going to require hand feeding targeting and strong willingness to change water preemptively or they’ll starve out, in the late 90s everyone used live rock so coral growth/feed access wasn’t really an issue, the uglies meant GHA issues....now with dry setups we’re taking much longer to be able to naturally support corals via missing food webs and our uglies includes organisms I struggle daily to identify on challenge posts, be ready for intercepts. Def no fish early on is my reco, corals first. I never did add any fish to my system :) it’s fallow for good

the fish I have in the breeder at the moment are clean, have been for 2 years. Had to tear the tank down to vermetid snail infestation (it was really really bad), and I think that came on a trochus snail I got from Live Aquaria. At that point, I said, screw the Pukani rock, and just got clean reef saver rock.

I figure I'm still about 10 days from the initial cycle completion. My 2ppm ammonia went up to 2, has fallen to 0, and I do have a very high nitrite reading, but after reading the thread, I will test things out the first week of november.

I'm in no rush, the fish appear to be doing just fine in the breeder, the corals I do have are brown, but brown is better than white. I change 10gallons weekly of the ~36 gallon capacity, my algae scrubber is running, and have good growth on the screen, so that's seeded and ready to go when my tank is.

I plan to hold off on corals in general until I have some coralline growth and have a rock from my established biocube in there, covered in purple and red coralline algae.

I have no plans for sand, in any capacity. My first attempt at sand was nothing short of an unmitigated disaster. If you see my reboot of the 120 thread, you'll see the color water I had....just disgusting.
 
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Harold, apparently I didn't say that about dry rock (quote above yours) and thank you for contributing.



What you described above is suspension cycling...we're talking about surface cycling, you haven't read our thread with the right kind of intent.


P
I hope this viewpoint here aligns you for success:

How would the masses approach 150 gallons that was undergoing some type of invasion challenge

They would of course do what the masses do... entertain the invasion while tinkering with the water and hesitating. They'd start an ID thread.

But a 1% er wouldn't do that
The aquarist who demands success sees your aquarium as merely three brute containers from Home Depot...a rather simple drain down of most of the water allows access to most areas for direct hand guiding of new substrate...this is better than tinkering with water and waiting months. You can always put back the same water you took out, so that you reached an area that needed manual cleaning without hesitation. I show a demo vid below that your corals can ride out a drain just fine.

That's your trick to never being invaded in my opinion, a new form of access. I use just one brute container to run my 55 g planted tank with the same access. Algae doesn’t take over my tank, I’ll drain and clean off the driftwood or pick off any invaded leaves, new growths are free. That’s guiding, actual substrate forced compliance.

The tank you are cycling is but two or three brute containers away from never being invaded...



Harold,
This thread is the study of benthic depositional science on marine substrates... join us for chat but be sure and read the first few pages as this is a different discussion than the other one we were on about adding filters to tanks
this is a work thread. It's not just theories, we have participants documenting various ways they’re not following usual rules for cycling.

We're not trying to measure how fast a water column can produce cycling numbers, here we deal in how long it takes surfaces to cycle, such that a full water change doesn't start things over. we measure the surface cycling time here...which agreed is sooner than a month, but a month is safe for all and it’s hard enough to pry people away from their test kits/nitrite etc we like to dry cycle a month without any testing, or skip the cycle altogether by using aged rock if possible.

Dry rock is good, it saves the ocean. We can't harvest the type of rock I like to use forever it has a finite availability. My take on dry rock is that you don't need to allow it to have an ugly phase (as the majority does) and you need to hand guide into the type of benthic communities that provide food for the corals you want...and yes it takes longer.
 
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