The microbiology of reef tank cycling.

[brandon429]

It’s awesome these few places offer pre QT fish

Make a tank using any rock approach we want, stop and enjoy and feed and waterchange for 76 or so days after the very last item is stocked before going fallow

It’ll be an enjoyable get to know hard work gardening expected fallow phase. Good for patience tuning....you can practice rock scraping without harming disease protocols, learn hands on. can’t juice it with fish ammonia so quick using Humblefish methods~ but that first 72-76+ days is the time you’ll get your algae tuning down and what to expect work-wise to keep the uninvaded condition.

To add those kinds of fish, the pre qt ones, after fallow seems like the quickest way to get fish using today’s updated approaches.

It seems we’re combining honest skip cycle substrate biology + Humblefish’s disease prevention protocol using that combo or any other QT inclusive approach

 

[JustinSmi86]

Appears all my levels are stable after adding live stock coral and invertebrates. Corals are opening up and look larger! All in 24 hours. From bare tank on Saturday.

 

[Katrina71]

@Brittany8808 this might be a good read for ya

 

[brandon429]

Justin next up for our speedy reef comes some algae

It's not bad, nature provides it endlessly in waters that would test ideal. Don't always see algae as a problem. See it as an elective

No way is best regarding algae, but every way is somewhere on the accept/decline continuum of choice.

Of fifty eight ways to deal with algae now or later I can only endorse lifting out a rock from that fine modular, accessible system you leggo'd into place and either burn the algae off outside the tank creatively or precisely debride it off externally with a steak knife tip and put peroxide on the cleaned spot, because you mean business and that tank is not allowed to misbehave.

leaving water consistent for the corals and not endlessly chasing measures, just manually force your rocks to comply until you figure out a way to not need to. As your new old rock arrangement reconfigures it will be less work. Things like lighting intensity really matter. Blue vs white...you'd be amazed at what running your overall light selection slightly under full power can do for algae suppression. These are the predicted successions coming in the next two months, you'll see the whiskers forming pretty much anywhere there isn't coralline or coral flesh to fend it off.

Yes nature uses grazers but for us/ luxury. They might work, or they might work about as hard as not much ever but you can have our 24x7 whole pellet waste for your sandbed / welcome.

We choose what algae does to our tanks. Some work often, some never work and are lucky rascals right off the bat, but don't think lucky ways transmit well to others. What transmits well to other tanks is specifically impress me with ways you did not let your tank get overrun.

You wouldn't know it from looking, but my vase has been fire blasted with a grill lighter on video, blasted with 35% peroxide so dangerous one drop is a permanent blinding agent, and rasped with metal such that a dentist's inspection would get the blue ribbon. I could not afford to lose this vase, so that is what occurred. Once every inch was covered by an Lps mouth, no more hand guiding required. Cruise control for good, I wasn't lucky enough to start with it.

 

[JustinSmi86]

Already have diatoms forming on upper layers of live rock... going to lower my light cycle a bit as I have it on 12 hrs currently. Have a decent clean up crew I just added... we will see how they do.

 

[brandon429]

a bump for cycle ninjas.

 

[JustinSmi86]

Figured I would provide update on tank. Everything is still going very well. I did loose one clownfish however it was unrelated to cycling but suspected o2 drop over night. Upgraded powerheads, protein skimmer, and adding sump.

 

[brandon429]

Hey it looks great and that's a strong fish loading in there, it's starting off really well!!

 

[Letterkenny]

Brandon - great advice here, thanks for providing. While I wish I saw this thread before I started, I wanted to stop in with my status to get some advice. I started the cycle a week and a half ago. I think I am somewhere within the “in the middle” category as I used live sand but dry rock. I added 8.45oz of Bio-Spira at the beginning of the cycle and dosed to 2ppm of ammonia chloride. I later added 8oz of Dr Tim’s one and Only. That said, where do you think I am at? Do I still wait another 20 days to hit the 30 day mark or can I do a change early and start to add a bioload?

Edit - I’m actually using CaribSea Liferock so should have some more bacteria there as well.

 

[brandon429]

Hey thanks tons for stopping by we would really enjoy ammonia confirmation of predicted timing based on submersion dates, and known boosters for your setup: at about 12 days total hydration that liferock alone should cycle, it's the specific time we think true painted liferock will cycle / awakened and replicated bacteria from what's painted in the coralline dye and from life rock cycle links collected at twelve days.

Live sand, instant cycle material-my lfs used to run sixty baby clowns in a 20 gallons with only live sand and a skimmer and powerhead. Sand is strong surface area and if arriving wet in a bag, certainly loaded with nitrifiers.
Going from Dr Reefs study on bottle bac, you used quality strains they're active for sure. Adhere within a week strains or days even. If your tank can move ammonia from a discernible tiny, small level down to zero as of now then it's cycled regarding ability to carry an emergency bioload or for testing fun, but for no test cycling at 10-12 days your setup is done due to specific compounding bac arrangements above. At thirty days, deal is sealed and then some

The universal definition of a done cycle is immunity to any frequency or amount of water changes; can't unadhere bac from surfaces once set and the act of cycling a tank is to drive adherence and colony reproduction. Cycles do not uncycle if kept wet. Additional feeding not required, they get their own feed if we withhold. The proof a cycle is done is you can do a hundred / infinite full water changes, and the test always passes a light ammonia oxidation test in 24 hours. Even if you starve the system for three years it still passes, dr reef is doing a ten yr test~

 

[Letterkenny]

It has been a while since I dosed to 2ppm but I see 1ppm go to near zero within 12-16 hours. That said, as your guidance was given after I made an order for Fritz Turbostart, I might as well use it at this point. With that in mind, is best success to do a 100% or near 100% water change and then dose it with the turbo start or to just go as is with the turbo start?

 

[brandon429]

I’d try to resell it for credit at the lfs nearby for trade in credit for frags! But if not, no matter either way just dump it in. We cover somewhere in the pages that adding extra bac is harmless. The extra colonies will just self regulate over time and balance out to what the limits of surface area are within the tank.

 

[Letterkenny]

I’d try to resell it for credit at the lfs nearby for trade in credit for frags! But if not, no matter either way just dump it in. We cover somewhere in the pages that adding extra bac is harmless. The extra colonies will just self regulate over time and balance out to what the limits of surface area are within the tank.

Apparently they never shipped it so I cancelled the order for the Fritz. Sounds like I should be close to the end as I will be hitting two weeks here shortly on the LifeRock plus I added the 40lbs of live sand and the two bacteria in a bottle for a 45 gallon. Sounds like I just need to do the 100% water change now.

 

[Dom]

@Brandon,

Understanding this thread is important to me as I am preparing a new build and would like to cycle using this method, once the build is complete.

I am one of those “traditionalists”. In this instance, I use the good ‘ole fashioned cocktail shrimp and test kit to cycle my tanks. It has been a tried and true method for me and I am very much of the philosophy that if it isn’t broken, don’t fix it.

I understand that during cycling, our only concern is ammonia levels. Another way of stating this would be to say that we are concerned with the tank’s ability to process ammonia.

Nitrates (NO3) are byproduct of your tank’s ability to process ammonia. Wouldn’t it then be necessary to monitor NO3 as an indicator to see if your tank is processing ammonia? Or, is it conclusive that the depletion of ammonia to ZERO is a cycled tank?

If I understand correctly, what you are describing is determining that a tank is cycled based on observations of the tank. If this is correct, wouldn’t you agree that this approach is something for the more advanced/experienced aquarist?

And by extension, wouldn’t the cocktail shrimp and test kit approach be more appropriate for the beginner reef keeper?

If you agree, then my conclusion is that there is a place for both methods in the hobby.

I fully understand why you wouldn't want to add ammonia to a tank containing live rock as it would exterminate the life on the live rock beyond the good bacteria it is home to.

What I don't understand is why you would want to add ammonia in the case where you are using dry rock? Won't the presence of organics on the dry rock lead to a rise in ammonia once submerged in the tank?

Dom.

 

[lapin]

Can you first define "dry rock"?

 

[brandon429]

Dom thanks tons for posting, we want 100% of discussions that test and go into detail about our method. This is my take on the matter:

i advocate pre cleaning dry rock of crusty jerky so that any ammonia we input for Group A work is precisely controlled. it becomes algae fuel headaches if we both cure and cycle at the same time.

regarding the testing, we always use a two fold method here: submersion time AND ammonia (submersion time is always reliable without testing, we show for 16 pages without loss, the ammonia portion is because people MUST test and we show them the only param that matters, and how to calibrate a test kit so it will work for all testers)

so because submersion time biology is infallible, we dont have to know nitrate as the sole mechanism for reducing ammonia over the time of 30 days in a hydrated body of water is via nitrification from microbes. when ammonia goes away, nitrate is produced by rule, so no need to measure nitrate ever to call a cycle done as we do in the cycle ump section on p1.

even testing for nitrate is rife with misreads, we have linked on page 1 a 20+ point spread of reading between two testers. New reefers are better off using this method vs the classic testing one.


***this doesnt mean your method of precise testing is wrong or that you arent doing it right, Dr Reef has total command over api too and can produce the pics and work threads to show it. no doubts there

*what has to be done to test your method or counter this one is start a cycle thread where you manage cycles from all entrants, and see if you are getting completions that take longer than 30 days. youd have to post how you are assessing completion and stall, then we'd evaluate to see if a better method exists.

no form of theory trading can replace the massive amnt of cycle examples we are building, many from 1st time cyclers.
B

 

[brandon429]

neat claim to audit:

theres only one place for info that w cycle all tanks by day 30. as soon as that becomes wrong info we will get a tank loss/mass fish loss stated by a tank that should have been ready at day 30 but wasnt.


*try and locate any typical cycling thread or article that uses 3x param testing. Cycles range from 15-90 days.

that spread of massive difference is why there is room to remake cycling advice. It all starts with building a work thread, and inspecting and logging patterns before remodeling the advice.

Its my opinion the old way sets up new cyclers to have zero predictive control over their tank. All we do here is predict and follow through, predict and follow through/practice. the biology we use here is the biology from all google cycling charts searches show. all have the same dates, none go out 90 days. I therefore must question all current cycling articles omitting that critical advice that ran microbiology lessons in college before the internet and slews of reporters just positive their tank has had 8 ppm of ammonia (per api) for the last 40 days.

we found what was making these tanks not match up with the known timeframes...testing errors.

I hope for the day someone starts up a cycle work thread, inviting challenges, doing it a different way. there's no harm in taking 100 days to call a cycle done, its all safe after day 30.

we wanted to use accurate microbiology to be free of unneeded purchases, control algae well with a plan, and never require testing to stamp a cycle closed.

Try and predict how our thread will look in 5 more years, full of cycled no test tanks is my formal bet. if we're up to 100 pages never measuring nitrate, and never killing people's first bioload, then we werent just lucky all this time.

 

[Dom]

Can you first define "dry rock"?

Any rock not stored in water until sold.

 

[brandon429]

I would say the vast amount of base rock we encountered here doesnt produce ammonia upon hydration. I struggle to find any example of group A cycling here that would've produced ammonia on its own. i know there are some forms of dried base rock that has former jerkied life on it, and that will break down into ammonia but we just havent been seeing it here. If it becomes an issue ill go back edit it into the first page

 

[tstar]

I'm currently in the later stages (I believe) of a 29 gal. tank cycling with Group A rock and sand with bottled bac, dosing Ammonium Chloride, the tank has been up and running for 15 days. I've been building up brown diatoms for the last three days. I can provide details, after I compile them if you'd like to add my setup to the test pool...

I'm using all Salifert test kits. It seems that I've been getting more and more inconsistent readings as time goes on. For example yesterday morning I tested and had .15ppm Ammonia and .5ppm Nitrite, at noon both were zero?? After the initial dosing Ammonia, the tank has been eliminating every dose of Ammonia within 24 hours, I've dosed up to 108 drops of Ammonium Chloride...

I do have a question that arose to me while scanning your thread. If we advocate NOT trusting test kits for cycling does that imply that test kits for trace elements are not to be trusted as well????

Tim