The MindStream Pricing and Subscription Model

[MnFish1]

Agree.

You have to make the stretch from after the first year to the 5th, when they service the unit.

And, Mindstream's pricing structure is way different than any of the other companies out there.

JMO...

But - is it 'very different'? Trident costs the price of an apex + the trident + every 2 month reagents + every 1-2 year maintenance + replacement of probes. What is the difference? Not wanting an argument - but - this device also measures 10 parameters (I'm not sure ALL of them will be useful) and it does not 'control' your system. But - In all honesty - based on the problems I've had with (company unnamed) and their controller - I dont use my controller to control anything - except when I do maintenance - which I could also do with a surge suppressor.

 

[MnFish1]

Agree.

You have to make the stretch from after the first year to the 5th, when they service the unit.

And, Mindstream's pricing structure is way different than any of the other companies out there.

JMO...

Just curious - sorry missed it in the other post - are there many companies that give 'repair costs' after the warranty period has ended - before there is a problem? That said - do many companies even say the expected life of their product (Mindstream says 5 years at least) - that is the only basis for your original question about between 1-5 years. There are certainly arguments against the Mindstream product - I guess I dont see this as one of them (as compared to Trident, Alkatronic, etc).

 

[MindStream]

im happy to pay the initial price and the subscription

any idea when it will be available in the UK ?

Happy to be a guinea pig

Hi jim_fitz,

Thank your for your interest! We are only shipping to U.S. addresses at this time and it may be some time before we ship to the U.K. You can sign up for updates on our website at: MindStreamH2O.com/subscribe.

 

[jim_fitz]

MindStreamH2O.com/subscribe

done thank you

 

[ElussssvReefSD]

As someone who is building out a new large system who will also be forced to at times spend 3-4 days/week away from their tank for work, the capability of this device is very compelling. I am trying to straddle the line between the KISS method, and the convenience of full automation and the piece of mind (some may say false piece of mind?) that devices like these could bring if they live up to their claims.

So Mindstream, if I'm understanding your documentation correctly, you are able to access the data from any associated device from the cloud at any point in time and will notify you automatically if any parameters are out of range. Are you also able to be notified automatically of any maintenance issues with the device itself? For example, will it send an alert to tell you if it was knocked off or disconnected by accident? Or maybe you might've forgotten to change your sensor disc out, would it notify you that the testing capability has been degraded? I apologize if these questions have already been addressed, still playing catch-up with my research of this product.

 

[ElussssvReefSD]

Also, just a quick observation from someone who's still relatively new to the hobby (last saltie tank was a FOWLR in college many years ago) regarding the pricing model:

Subscription pricing is where a lot of companies are going nowadays especially if they are hosting data on the cloud. Remember that it costs money to store and maintain that data, so us, the consumer, would have to pay that cost regardless either through a monthly fee or a much larger up-front cost. Frankly, I would rather pay a monthly fee and have the option to opt out if I no longer wanted/needed the device and its associated data versus having to pay a lot more $$$ upfront and then not get the full benefit of what I bought. True $1,000 is a lot of money any way you look at it, but if it works as advertised, I'm sure it would save me at least as much, if not more so, in the long run.

Also, the long-development time also actually makes me more confident versus less so in the quality of the final product. Besides, isn't it a basic tenet of reefing that "bad things happen quickly and all at once, while good things happen slooooooowly"?

Sorry for the lengthy post, just my 2 cents. Still not sure I will be going the Mindstream route, but def ready to jump on the bandwagon if the advertised capability is proven with real-world users.

 

[MindStream]

As someone who is building out a new large system who will also be forced to at times spend 3-4 days/week away from their tank for work, the capability of this device is very compelling. I am trying to straddle the line between the KISS method, and the convenience of full automation and the piece of mind (some may say false piece of mind?) that devices like these could bring if they live up to their claims.

So Mindstream, if I'm understanding your documentation correctly, you are able to access the data from any associated device from the cloud at any point in time and will notify you automatically if any parameters are out of range. Are you also able to be notified automatically of any maintenance issues with the device itself? For example, will it send an alert to tell you if it was knocked off or disconnected by accident? Or maybe you might've forgotten to change your sensor disc out, would it notify you that the testing capability has been degraded? I apologize if these questions have already been addressed, still playing catch-up with my research of this product.

Hi ElussssvReefSD,

Thank you for your questions and welcome to the forum!

Yes - the MindStream web app can be accessed from any web-enabled device and is designed to work with many screen formats (laptops, desktops, tablets, and phones). Additionally the web app will automatically send you a notification if any of your parameters deviate outside of user-set safety limits (the app suggests some broad limits for you when you set up your monitor and then you can adjust thereafter). The web app will let you know if it loses power, WiFi connection, or has trouble taking a reading. It'll also remind you to change your monthly sensor disc once you've received it in the mail.

The near-continuous testing that the MindStream Monitor offers both new insights into reef tank biology/chemistry as well as alerts if a tank emergency occurs that puts your inhabitants in harms way. We're thrilled with the new management and husbandry strategies the MindStream Monitor will enable for reef keepers!

Kind regards,
Alex at MindStream

 

[MindStream]

Since you measure every :15 min and are sending the results to users' accounts on the website, do you do anything else with the data? What I'm getting at is, it seems to me that algorithms could determine "bad" readings and could even offer "corrected" readings with all of that data. I'm not saying this should eliminate real-time test readings. It just seems like accuracy could be improved at the software level with all of that data collected for all of the things you are testing.

Great question, Crashjack! You are correct that the MindStream Monitor collects raw data from your tank and our cloud software calculates the corresponding parameter reading for your tank. This creates powerful opportunity for us to apply a variety of algorithms including primarily temperature and salinity correction and reading error management. We have already implemented numerous algorithms to this affect and it is a key component of our product development strategy to continuously innovate and improve these algorithms to provide the best quality, most accurate data possible. The ability to measure 10 water parameters every 15 minutes creates an extremely rich data set and enables profound insights that you can use to best monitor and maintain your tank.

 

[EmdeReef]

Let’s also keep in mind that both KH director and Alkatronic cost ~$900 + reagents, ph probes, pump parts etc. and that’s for one parameter. You can pretty much bet you’ll be buying pump Heads in 12-18months for both...

I’ve tested Alkatronic against a mettler Toledo lab titrator and am very happy with my purchase so far but I would like to see at least Ca, Mg and K. Continuous salinity would be nice too given that controller conductivity probes are close to junk.

8-9 out of 10 are useful parameters IMO, NH3 may be useful if dosing ammonia. CO2 is in the nice to have category but guess would help diagnose causes of low ph in some tanks.

In sum, I’m a likely customer but want to wait to see how this all works in practice + not really keen on waiting 6-8 weeks lol. I will say the 45 day money back guarantee sounds reassuring even though I hate returning stuff.

 

[Crashjack]

Great question, Crashjack! You are correct that the MindStream Monitor collects raw data from your tank and our cloud software calculates the corresponding parameter reading for your tank. This creates powerful opportunity for us to apply a variety of algorithms including primarily temperature and salinity correction and reading error management. We have already implemented numerous algorithms to this affect and it is a key component of our product development strategy to continuously innovate and improve these algorithms to provide the best quality, most accurate data possible. The ability to measure 10 water parameters every 15 minutes creates an extremely rich data set and enables profound insights that you can use to best monitor and maintain your tank.

Very cool.

Another question (it might sound stupid), but how is the unit powered, and how does the WiFi transmitter/receiver work with the unit underwater?

 

[hart24601]

Let’s also keep in mind that both KH director and Alkatronic cost ~$900 + reagents, ph probes, pump parts etc. and that’s for one parameter. You can pretty much bet you’ll be buying pump Heads in 12-18months for both...

I’ve tested Alkatronic against a mettler Toledo lab titrator and am very happy with my purchase so far but I would like to see at least Ca, Mg and K. Continuous salinity would be nice too given that controller conductivity probes are close to junk.

8-9 out of 10 are useful parameters IMO, NH3 may be useful if dosing ammonia. CO2 is in the nice to have category but guess would help diagnose causes of low ph in some tanks.

In sum, I’m a likely customer but want to wait to see how this all works in practice + not really keen on waiting 6-8 weeks lol. I will say the 45 day money back guarantee sounds reassuring even though I hate returning stuff.

Keep in mind they most likely get carbonate alk by calculation using at least CO2, pH, salinity, and maybe temp so a few of those that don't seem useful are needed to get the useful parameter.

 

[MindStream]

Very cool.

Another question (it might sound stupid), but how is the unit powered, and how does the WiFi transmitter/receiver work with the unit underwater?

Hi Crashjack, the MindStream Monitor utilizes inductive power technology to wirelessly transmit power through your tank glass/acrylic. The monitor accepts standard 2.4 GHz wireless connections. Here are some images of the monitor and power module configuration on our home page: MindStreamH2O.com!

 

[Crashjack]

Hi Crashjack, the MindStream Monitor utilizes inductive power technology to wirelessly transmit power through your tank glass/acrylic. The monitor accepts standard 2.4 GHz wireless connections. Here are some images of the monitor and power module configuration on our home page: MindStreamH2O.com!

Wow. So the cord plugs into the magnet on the dry side, which also houses the WiFi txmitter/receiver, correct? Also, is it A/C powered or D/C with a converter?

 

[joseserrano]

Wow. So the cord plugs into the magnet on the dry side, which also houses the WiFi txmitter/receiver, correct? Also, is it A/C powered or D/C with a converter?

I don't believe it has a power cord

 

[MindStream]

Wow. So the cord plugs into the magnet on the dry side, which also houses the WiFi txmitter/receiver, correct? Also, is it A/C powered or D/C with a converter?

Hi Crashjack, The power cord is connected to a DC power adapter and plugs into the power module on the dry side. The WiFi chip is housed in the top of the status indicator light on the monitor.

 

[Crashjack]

Hi Crashjack, The power cord is connected to a DC power adapter and plugs into the power module on the dry side. The WiFi chip is housed in the top of the status indicator light on the monitor.

What is the voltage/mAh? I ask because if I got one, it would be nice to run via my controller's DC relay box.

 

[saf1]

I like the product. Not a fan of the subscription. Subscription, reagents, I get bot sides of the discussion. In order for me to play the subscription cost has to come down and maybe over time it will if the discs can be manufactured at a lower cost or the pipeline is somehow changed to lower the cost.

I'm only saying this as feedback to encourage this analysis. I see a few unique things that make this an attractive solution compared to others but I honestly believe you are pricing yourself into a corner. Hopefully it is someone constructive and not negative.

Trust me - for someone that has been waiting for a Trident since May and on several lists to no avail I've been reading on your solution. Now - can we talk Military discount maybe No, seriously I'm teasing. Best of luck.

 

[Crashjack]

I like the product. Not a fan of the subscription. Subscription, reagents, I get bot sides of the discussion. In order for me to play the subscription cost has to come down and maybe over time it will if the discs can be manufactured at a lower cost or the pipeline is somehow changed to lower the cost.

I'm only saying this as feedback to encourage this analysis. I see a few unique things that make this an attractive solution compared to others but I honestly believe you are pricing yourself into a corner. Hopefully it is someone constructive and not negative.

Trust me - for someone that has been waiting for a Trident since May and on several lists to no avail I've been reading on your solution. Now - can we talk Military discount maybe No, seriously I'm teasing. Best of luck.

They have to charge what they have to charge. They just aren’t good at creating a pricing structure. The way to do it is to charge $1,415 ($995 + $420 annual subscription) for the unit with the first year of disks shipped every month for free. After that, charge something like $55 for individual disks and then offer the monthly and annual subscription pricing. That way the company gets all of their money, gets most of it up front, and for those customers who want to stretch the useful life of the disks, they get a premium. The customers feel like they are getting something extra for free, and they get to kick that subscription “can” down the road a year. I don’t know if I’ve seen a more negative pricing structure for any product, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good product.

 

[MnFish1]

They have to charge what they have to charge. They just aren’t good at creating a pricing structure. The way to do it is to charge $1,350 for the unit with the first year of disks shipped every month for free. After that, charge something like $55 for individual disks and then offer the monthly and annual subscription pricing. That way the company gets all of their money, gets most of it up front, and for those customers who want to stretch the useful life of the disks, they get a premium. The customers feel like they are getting something extra for free, and they get to kick that subscription “can” down the road a year. I don’t know if I’ve seen a more negative pricing structure for any product, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a good product.

LOLOL - and how many companies do you own/manage. ??? If only Mindstream had you to advise them. lol

 

[Crashjack]

LOLOL - and how many companies do you own/manage. ??? If only Mindstream had you to advise them. lol

Actually I've owned two businesses, still own one, was a CFO/controller for over 20 years, invested in publicly traded stocks for years (I'm not talking about selecting mutual funds for my 401k; I'm talking individual company stocks), have an MBA, and help individuals with their small businesses through a nonprofit organization. Regardless, all it takes is a little common sense...

Not knowing anything about Mindstream's business, their cost structure, their cost of goods sold, the profit they are trying to achieve, and so forth, none of us can determine what the price "should be". People gripe about price, no matter what the price is, no matter what the product is. Therefore, why create two negatives? A $995 price for the unit is one negative, and $420 for a year's worth of disks is another negative. If you stick the two together and make a one-time price of $1,415 for the unit and first year's worth of disks, that is only one negative. Also, which sounds better?

1. You get the wonderful Mindstream unit for less than a thousand dollars, just $995!!! To get the disks to make it work for the first year, you pay $420 or $40 per month.
2. You get the wonderful Mindstream unit for $1,415, and we will ship the first year of disks to your door for free!!!

The reason you sell individual disks at a premium is to: 1) Make the subscription pricing look better, and 2) Give the customer more freedom... making customers feel a little less locked-in and more in control. Mindstream might sell very few of the individual disks, but having the ability to purchase individually makes customers feel more empowered.

All of that said, the Mindstream is #1 on my Christmas list right now (actually, it is my Christmas list). The pricing structure has nothing to do with how well the product works, its accuracy, the value of the information it provides and so forth. If the reviews come back that it works as advertised, I'm in.