The next LED tech advancement? An idea…

Reefing102

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
461
Reaction score
535
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Central Ohio
So this is just a thought process, after reading various metal halide and LED threads and personally being a metal halide fan. Now this isn’t a which is best because that’s genuinely whatever works for you and keeps your coral healthy. This is about a technological improvement to LEDs that could satisfy the wants of the metal halide group as well. If this has been previously discussed, feel free to shut me down.

Please note the following is based on my own observations and thoughts and is not backed by any scientific study, company or corporate sponsorship. The idea, if found to be acceptable, is free for any company to incorporate or experiment with.

So to start, if you’re all about that streamline ultra modern look that many LED fixtures present, this thread is not for you as my thought would present at best the look of black boxes.

With that said, a local gas station has replaced their commercial grade halide/sodium bulbs with LED. They simply kept the fixture and replaced the bulbs. I’m curious if a similar situation could occur with LED aquarium lighting. Create single end and double ended LED bulbs to put into Metal halide reflectors.

My thoughts on why this could or could not work:

The LEDs would be positioned to utilize the reflector. Thus you should be able to run the LEDs at 100% capacity without worrying about the hot spots created by current fixtures due to LED facing directly into the tank.

It is my belief that a lot of the “shimmer” people love about metal halide is the result a majority of the reflector reflectingthe gasses moving in the bulb along with surface water movement Whereas the “shimmer” from LED is a result of strictly light hitting surface water movement. This thought process could potentially improve the “shimmer” as the light spread from a reflection is wider creating a wider shimmer and eliminating the disco ball effect.

Due to using the reflector to spread the light, this should also assist in eliminating the “shadowing” effect of LEDs.

Potential reasons why this won’t work:

PAR - Is the PAR reduced due to using the reflectors instead of pointing the LEDs directly at the tank?

Reflectors - You still have the sizable reflector of a halide fixture. Now this isn’t to say that technology advancements couldn’t put out something similar to Geissman and still keep the same effect?

Controllability - I feel if actual LED bulbs were used the controllability may decrease. As it’s not “hard wired” directly to the board. Although if using them similar to Halides, you’d still have the ReefBrite Bars or similar for the dawn dusk. I can also see the controllability still working as current LEDs as you could also have LED companies creating their own fixtures with reflectors?

Just spitballing an idea. Perhaps I’m way off base.
 

rtparty

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 19, 2010
Messages
1,320
Reaction score
1,639
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Utah
I talked to Tullio about this on the phone a few months back. I don't want to put words in his mouth or totally botch what he said but the summary is he already drew this all up at one point and tried to figure it out. The "bulb" itself would become a major shadowing problem.

I brought this up with him because I had the same idea years ago and couldn't figure out why no one had done it
 

Bpb

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
3,607
Reaction score
4,916
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
College Station
Corncob style led bulbs would work in a socket style fixture. The market for a reef spectrum unit would be so minuscule I don’t ever see it happening. Large reflectors defeat a very major purpose the vast majority of people using leds choose to…form factor.
 

dedragon

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
2,540
Reaction score
1,986
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
the led diode by nature has its own internal "reflector" usually around 120 degrees i think so external reflectors around it will not do much probably .
They do have this option in the form of par38 aquarium bulbs though
 
Top Shelf Aquatics

dedragon

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
2,540
Reaction score
1,986
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
brands also tried this with t5 fixtures using led "bulbs" that screw into existing sockets but they were either super unpopular or probably just didnt perform well.
also check out aquaticlife sponsor section they are testing newer t5/led bulbs maybe the new ones will be better
 

oreo5457

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 18, 2017
Messages
2,892
Reaction score
1,759
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
It's just the type of lens commonly used.
GUIDE_TIR_11.jpg


The "issue" already has answers..and this just expands a bit on Bpd's answer.
Metal halides ARE a point light source for all intents and purposes.. broken up into 100's(1000's?) of smaller point light sources..you start w/ like 40,000 lumens in a 1cm sq area (rough guesses) with a bunch of it freely radiating in a
180 degree arc. Rest is redirected w/ the reflector. Big reflectors are err.. "cumbersome"

What makes it special is all one "color" which brings us to the REAL "next step"
The next step would be to phosphor the leds in a more "reef centric" mix.
Good luck with that.
Next would be cheaper leds so the cost of "halide density" is lower.
It's actually low on the led itself side..
Rough estimate using "industry metrics" MH 667 lumens/$1 assuming a 400w $60 bulb @ 100l/watt (bit high).
LED 476 lumens / $1 @ 147L/watt (documented)
Lenses are used to minimize "wasted photons" to decrease the cost at the expense of poorer light distribution.
Actually all of this can be fixed by just using tighter reflectors (less eye spill) but higher mounting heights.
Also defeats the popularity of leds..
Example... but .. how does it look and how do you hang it?

"Metal halide like" led that look like MH's.. ;)


See the "problem" is what makes leds desirable to many is form and versatility (color adjustment) which you defeat

There is no need to do "halide leds".
People want halide like.. use halides..live with it.

Nobodys asking for t5's to be be made to look more like halides.. or having big halide diffuser plates to eliminate shadows (yea halides shadow) and shimmer.
Why not ask halides to be designed more like leds?.. :)
Leds have been proven to work.. contrary to a lot of err "discussions" but will remain different.


As to spectrum.. whole separate err discussion.
 

Mike konesky

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 18, 2019
Messages
208
Reaction score
205
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
I really like the idea of mounting them pointing up into a reflector and have considered testing. I do not think anything but a strip could be viable due to the size it would block when being reflected. Just like sound waves imo, need them not to bounce right back at the source. Just not a lot of premade reflectors suitable for the application due to the angles inside them.
 
OP
Reefing102

Reefing102

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
461
Reaction score
535
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Central Ohio
Awesome feedback all. Thank you! I had a feeling this had been thought of or at least discussed.
Given the lens thought and looking at it for a quick minute, is that why some people remove the lens from their LEDs for more spread? But also why people use diffusers, to run them stronger but even distribution?
 
AS

Bpb

2500 Club Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
3,607
Reaction score
4,916
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
College Station
Awesome feedback all. Thank you! I had a feeling this had been thought of or at least discussed.
Given the lens thought and looking at it for a quick minute, is that why some people remove the lens from their LEDs for more spread? But also why people use diffusers, to run them stronger but even distribution?

I may be missing a manufacturer or two here, but I believe the lens removal typically happens with black boxes or other type units that use the little plastic individual optics over the diodes. I’ve seen it done on Orphek bars as well. The units like the Neptune, Philips, ati, last couple generation radions, AI units ect either don’t use lenses at all, or don’t have individually removable optics. So the diffusers help to reduce the caustic lines of individual colors (disco effect). They don’t really improve usable coverage. The light is still coming from the same origin footprint in either scenario
 

BCSreef

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
465
Reaction score
341
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Maineville, OH
I agree with most of the replies above. No need to repeat. Although I'll add that there are reef fixtures that use reflectors. I know the GHL Mitras use no lenses, but instead use a 2-stage set of reflectors around each LED and LED cluster. Still, nothing like a halide in spectrum/spread. There may be other LED fixtures with reflectors out there too.
 
AS

BCSreef

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
465
Reaction score
341
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
Location
Maineville, OH
I’d love a big diffuser over my reef breeders units to soften the disco effect. Maybe something commercial might work as a retrofit
When I was building DIY LEDs, I tried the 2' X 4' clear "diamond" textured diffusers for fluorescent fixtures from Home Depot. Cheap and they did reduce the disco effect significantly. I still have some. I would drop them by if you were closer :D
 

Shooter6

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
May 13, 2017
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
530
Review score
+0 /0 /-0
So this is just a thought process, after reading various metal halide and LED threads and personally being a metal halide fan. Now this isn’t a which is best because that’s genuinely whatever works for you and keeps your coral healthy. This is about a technological improvement to LEDs that could satisfy the wants of the metal halide group as well. If this has been previously discussed, feel free to shut me down.

Please note the following is based on my own observations and thoughts and is not backed by any scientific study, company or corporate sponsorship. The idea, if found to be acceptable, is free for any company to incorporate or experiment with.

So to start, if you’re all about that streamline ultra modern look that many LED fixtures present, this thread is not for you as my thought would present at best the look of black boxes.

With that said, a local gas station has replaced their commercial grade halide/sodium bulbs with LED. They simply kept the fixture and replaced the bulbs. I’m curious if a similar situation could occur with LED aquarium lighting. Create single end and double ended LED bulbs to put into Metal halide reflectors.

My thoughts on why this could or could not work:

The LEDs would be positioned to utilize the reflector. Thus you should be able to run the LEDs at 100% capacity without worrying about the hot spots created by current fixtures due to LED facing directly into the tank.

It is my belief that a lot of the “shimmer” people love about metal halide is the result a majority of the reflector reflectingthe gasses moving in the bulb along with surface water movement Whereas the “shimmer” from LED is a result of strictly light hitting surface water movement. This thought process could potentially improve the “shimmer” as the light spread from a reflection is wider creating a wider shimmer and eliminating the disco ball effect.

Due to using the reflector to spread the light, this should also assist in eliminating the “shadowing” effect of LEDs.

Potential reasons why this won’t work:

PAR - Is the PAR reduced due to using the reflectors instead of pointing the LEDs directly at the tank?

Reflectors - You still have the sizable reflector of a halide fixture. Now this isn’t to say that technology advancements couldn’t put out something similar to Geissman and still keep the same effect?

Controllability - I feel if actual LED bulbs were used the controllability may decrease. As it’s not “hard wired” directly to the board. Although if using them similar to Halides, you’d still have the ReefBrite Bars or similar for the dawn dusk. I can also see the controllability still working as current LEDs as you could also have LED companies creating their own fixtures with reflectors?

Just spitballing an idea. Perhaps I’m way off base.
Your idea of changing the bulb only has been done by at least 1 person on fb. They ordered a special layout from a company at no additional cost. I never heard more on how it worked but he had a 600g cube refugeum in his basement. Maybe he or someone who knows him can get more input from him
 

Do you quarantine new coral before adding it to your reef tank?

  • YES always

    Votes: 70 17.6%
  • Sometimes depending (tell us why)

    Votes: 49 12.3%
  • NO never

    Votes: 267 67.1%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 12 3.0%
Tunze
Top