Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[fishybizzness]

Quick question Brandon, I'm going to be transferring my rock, sand and livestock to another tank in the near future. I have been having issues with algea, dinos, red slime etc. Over the past few months. I vacuum my sand weekly and blow off my rocks with a baster and I can never seem to get them as clean as I think they should be. If I rinse the rocks in fresh seawater and rinse out my sand as well as you instructed, do you think that I will have less issues going forward?

 

[brandon429]

Yes i sure do, something about that complex of matted invader + organic sink stores really makes them resilient to change, dosers, growback. We have a couple tanks here that didn’t respond as a cure, but for 35 pages I only recall two noncompliants/ rare

a thorough rip clean specifically reinstates clean sand if it’s truly rinsed, I just did my 14 year nano again and now its a shiny as a pearl.

 

[brandon429]

My 4th rip clean, this last round I really let waste build up for last two years, big rip clean all caught up.


Look how eutrophic reefs shift in color palette. This vase lost electric sharp color contrasts, the substrate was gray and yellowing and the glass haze unscrapable yellow mass, aging.

After rip clean laser clarity, sharp color contrasts back in place for years.



Brain coral about 4 pounds in weight, receded on the right side due to not enough light. I just bought that half a new kessil to aim at it will be in Friday. I'll have whole rock back to colony in 24 mos.

My oldest coral, going on 18 years only in reef bowls, this mass was produced in the reefbowl it's not a frag from lfs. It's the f2 colony of a frag from lfs, total pico grown mass.

Final shot 24 hours later 8/9/2020

Rip cleans are literally a lifespan cheat, you can make a reef live forever if you intercept at the right times.

Bet: next time I post that brain coral it's 100% restored as full size colony grown only in one gallon. All of that mass is for sure roti feast and roe eggs from reef nutrition, converted into coral by feed/ water change, feed/ water changes

My reef has had the most peroxide dosed to any reef x2, it was the testbed for all my peroxide work

This reef vase has had more 100% water changes than any captive reef I personally know of or have read about. I leave it drained in the bottom video for 33 minutes

Aside from punting it down the street, I've broken every firm rule in reefing with the vase and look how the life just doesn't stop. This worm is about eight years old, it lives through all phases even when my heater broke and the bowl nearly bleached due to 68 degree sustained temps



Live rocks continually seed new growths into the bed, we rip them out secondarily as waste is the main target of rinse and they're in close proximity, but the system remains in tact.

Live rocks repopulate the system, this why we rinse them in saltwater only, for these animals inside, and we never dose ammonia to live rock with animals in it, that's more barbaric than rip cleaning

 

[fishybizzness]

Thanks for the reply. I live in the Caribbean so I was even thinking about just replacing the sand with fresh ocean reef sand instead of spending time rinsing my old sand. I would also be rinsing the rocks in ocean water as well. I collect ocean water regularly for my water changes so I would be using the same water.

 

[brandon429]

That's ideal. When we landlocked do rinses we trade off heterogeneity, sandbed diversity, for that electric clean pop after shot. Losing the waste is more important than keeping the sandbed fauna

But for you, each blast rinse brings in more microbes and ejects waste, you have the ideal sourcing for water and substrate

** if you ever store ocean water keep it uncapped and circulated it is live and truly respiring waters due to planktors, they need oxygen and motion- ocean water must be kept energetic in order to not shift trophic states into waste, very fast. It is just like liquid live rock.

But with clean reef water as your source, you get the best of both worlds

 

[fishybizzness]

I collect 30 to 50 gallons at a time for my 55 and 120 tanks. I run it through a 10 micron filter sock and store it in a large rubbermaid trash can with a loose fitting lid on my shaded patio. I always keep a powerhead running in the container. Been doing this for several years now. I also always keep salt mix on hand for those rainy spells and when hurricanes pass by and kicks up all the debris. I wait until everything settles back down to collect again.

 

[brandon429]

Hey that’s excellent sourcing

when people who live in a cotton field in Texas assume saltwater is rare for others: nswsplaining

coastsplaining lol
excellent setup, by prefiltering the heavies it stores longer, still brings in diversity, that would make an excellent tank additive to anyone’s system.

 

[fishybizzness]

I collect at a beach about 1/4 mile down the hill from my house. That's the open atlantic if you were wondering! Can't get more natural than that! Yes, I'm bragging a little.. lol

 

[brandon429]

I want to fly my rc glider all over that air for twenty straight hours

Looks like the Caribbean

 

[fishybizzness]

It's the virgin islands

 

[brandon429]

hey that is sharp, it looks like the Caymans. the winds of life once took me to georgetown for three mos in a row in '96, GC east end and what a time. what I wouldnt give to be dared to eat raw conch smashed with a rock like a tourist again, and this time id do it

hey can u post us pics

getting to track environmental successions using boosted ocean water is very helpful for us

since each change brings in nutrients vs strips them, like 99% of our jobs, it sure might take a few more changeouts for ocean water to export and starve cyano/matted invaders but it will be neat to see what happens in relative times to our rip cleans using synth sea water mixed, very nutrient poor

 

[fishybizzness]

When i get the other tank set up I'll be sure to do that. This is my 120 that's been set up since the middle of April with liferock and Ocean sand and all Ocean water. I added some live rock in the sump and a piece in the display for diversity. I had a very quick, 2 week, cycle. I turned on the lights after 2 months and had them set a little too strong and had a slight algea outbreak. I turned down the light intensity, added a longspine urchin from my other tank some Caribbean top snails and 2 small blue tangs and the algea was gone in a little over a week. The water is 100% Ocean water. I started in with Ocean water and all my water changes have been with Ocean water as well. I find this tank to be alot more stable so far than my other one has ever been.

 

[forestsofkelp]

I just wanted to add my experience here. I've been running reefs for 10 years, very low maintainence tanks, ranging from 20-60g. I've done several tank moves.

I rapidly learned that the crap in the sand bed is bad. Every move I make, I take all the clean water, all the rock, and the sand last. The crappy, dirty water from the bottom stays behind. And when I put the old sand in the new tank, I drip dry it before I add it (just real quick before I throw it in). I've cycled twice..on initial set up. Never on a move. Regular full cleans sound like a good idea and are basically a better version of what I have been doing. I only got algae bloom when the sand bed was left undisturbed for prolonged periods (as was the style of the time)

I am planning on annually rip cleaning my current 20 when I gift it to my father. I am starting a 180. Its going to be cleaned sand from the beginning. However, I am going to be running it as DSR, so that means no water changes! and its so big, its going to be difficult to rip clean it. I plan on vacuuming the sand with a siphon every 6 months, as much as I can, washing it, and putting it back in, and just topping off the SW.

It's interesting, a lot of the anti detritus idea also exists in DSR, with the power filter and shallow sand bed that is kept clean. Regular rip cleaning, stirring, and detritus removal, IMO, is going to be a nice tool to have in the chest.

I firmly believe there is no one "true" method to run a tank. But its important to have options. Whereas once undisturbed in display DSBs were recommended, then Berlin, we now have a real option (IMO) of running sand beds in the display safely by not letting them become time bombs.

Thank you Brandon for opening this topic. It makes total sense. Why operate your sand bed as a permanent waste sink/anoxic ecosystem when it could just be an inert area that absorbs nutrients and is routinely emptied?

 

[brandon429]

Thank you so much for posting! In support of the multi ways to run a reef, I wanted to point out how even very small pico reefs which I use to test aging variations can still run hands off... balanced storage mode like we all want to be the case with sandbeds. The opposite of what I wrote here also works.


Maritza the vase reef on youtube is specifically on 8th year...no sandbed change, 5 inches pretty deep bed all twisted with worms and colored growths but this is under one gallon- total coral compaction in the system. We hyper-age these tiny systems by packing in life + tiny water volume, it saves having to wait years to see how a larger system ages. This tank is mimicking what a sixteen year system looks like, in half the time, and Maritza is invasion free. No cyano. Best sps I’ve ever seen in any pico far better than mine.


only one problem:

I cannot write a 36 page thread on storage method. It always goes south, and we used to try it this way. In our exploding armada of pico reefs in the early 2000s everyone was dsb, hands off. It didn’t work well for the masses like it did for specialists.

For every 25 new reefs doing hands off, in any arrangement we want to list, 23 are using chemiclean by month 4


we refuse the uglies here. When dandelions pop up in March I have more work to do, not less. I don’t let them take over the lawn, and some people don’t want the uglies, ever. we wanted a repeatable way to get there if desired.



Maritza is an artists reef, best pico coral growth I’ve seen. Bob Ross had no trouble painting trees with a broken stick if needed. I’d prefer hands off reef but mine turns yellow if left to store, I’m hooked on the every-three-years till I’m eighty rip clean.

repeatability, replaced by variation is what I find to be the main difference in our method vs classic ones. Once we started rinsing (hate to lose them worms) lifespans went infinite and simply riding out a tank until doom was no longer acceptable, even to preserve worms in the sand.

I now see it as: by all means anyone can start hands off and see if you paint


but if you cant, I can’t paint a lick, there’s an order of ops that forces your reef to run correctly until you can find a better way.

 

[brandon429]

AmaleeC our reef2reef peer has done a fine and thorough rip cleaning via message. I asked permission to summarize and of course post the workflow pictures.


**this work was a standout customization. She was blasting apparent dinos off the sandbed from a new tank and using pressure washing to blast off adhered algae (expected for new tanks, doesnt indicate bad params at all)

we have had a few freshwater-pressure washes of rock here and its not harmful on new rocks because they're not packed full of sponges etc.

The exact biofilms that insulate sand grains from losing their filtration bacteria after a rinse are the same biofilms that dont care if live rock is sprayed briefly with freshwater then returned to saltwater. Amalee's work shows again the strength of filter bacteria, not the weakness.

She shows how in EVERY case we will not be robbing too much bacteria-we need to only be cloud-free to skip the cycle and emerge clean and her pics do show that in succession.

I wouldnt pressure wash the most pristine live rock with tunicates and sponges etc, but even my rocks above from my pico wouldnt be harmed with a blast of spring water it would not harm a single thing and the worms inside wouldnt even know it.

She did the most practical customization for this tank and I was impressed with the pictures of the reset tank/skip cycle rebuild:

*the rocks were cleaned off and cleaned with peroxide during disassembly to return clean and ready


summary: those rocks endured both freshwater AND peroxide directly and did not recycle. Recycles do not happen in this thread because we dont ask for API ammonia readings. clean water, healthy fish spread around and not hovering at the top for air, always indicate ammonia compliance in the thousandths ppm, not the tenths.

if we took api readings this thread would be as sideways as possible, its under control by never asking for any ammonia readings but instead predicting them. We heartily request ammonia readings for work done with Seneye monitors, post any seneye readings you can find at all.

Amalee is experimenting with various techniques now to lessen grow back:

Build Thread - Amalee’s 75g Build

I disagree, the majority if not all that I have seen started with dry rock. Sure it is possible to have them with live rock, but the net cause is probably the same, zero nitrates and zero phosphates. Hello everyone! So I recently decided to test my tank and noticed that now that there’s no...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

New tank opting out of the uglies and from dosing

everything is brown...

Hello mate I was just reading through this thread and it seems your having the same issues I am having. As you can see from my photos. I've had none stop diatoms and now cyano but I am getting through it. All I am doing is keeping up with water changes and regular cleaning. When my nitrates...

www.reef2reef.com

a nano reef has a secret inherent design that can be used to keep them perpetually uninvaded: total access to all the water and substrate

 

[brandon429]

Team

anyone got any sandbed work

swaps


upgrades


cyano to blast out




We know by inference here that live rocks do not take on more bacteria when a sandbed is removed for the same bioload, that was made up information that governed approaches for decades... we had no way of knowing before digital measures like seneye arrived. we thought bacterial mass/numbers had to be preserved in order to keep a system stable, the removal of sandbed bacteria all at once was just too much loss for any system, that rule still permeates today though we've busted it.

The reason to use complete cleaning is because its beneficial for a reef tank, and improves lifespan we show. the opposite of what we thought was true is true



because live rock bacteria are already sufficient, removing the extras around them, in the sand or on filter surfaces, never leaves a system in deficit. we can use that technique to upgrade, downgrade, flip rip and remove sandbeds without loss, to transport them across town or across the state without loss using clean surface area science

 

[nastronaut]

Hey there,

I've got an upcoming move next month, just a few buildings down, so very very close. My tank is a 40 gal. The sandbed is pretty deep. I recycled it when I got the tank. I know it's got waste, but I'd proceeded with it when starting due to all the life present, namely conches and snails that came with the tank - later discovered all kinds of worms, pods, feather dusters, and more as time goes.

I've read through many of the posts and from what I gather I'm on the side of a very much living sandbed with tons of worms (probably hundreds), not just 6, from spaghetti to the white tube worms, bristles, etc, and am still finding new life cropping up quite often.

It's a little over 2 weeks til we have to transfer everything to the new apt and I'm trying to get a solid game plan together. Be it a complete clean, or getting things prepared and cleaned up to that point to minimize disturbance when transporting and setting back up.

Basically I'm open to input. I'm aware that there is a lot of waste built up as the bed is likely 5~ years old, and ultimately just want what's best for the whole tank long-term.

Can find some pics in my tank build thread, but I'll try and post more here now and tomorrow closer up.

Input appreciated! Will try and get more substrate close ups tomorrow. The green spots just need a good scrub, I don't think they're really spreading on the glass - hadn't had a chance to clean them yet, but just got a scrubber in.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you for posting this is exactly what we like to plan for

I would recommend the full rinse move, only because that’s 100% safe with no recycle risk. You do have good life in the bed, but since it’s complexed with waste we recommend a full rip clean before moving and re set up, all the life you’d rinse from the bed comes back because the benthic animals on the rocks will simply transfer back into the bed over time, losing those animals to a rinse in the name of overall safety is what we do

*when disassembled you can pick through the sand for obvious animals like mini conchs or snails and try and flick them into a holding container for re seeding

but regarding sandbed worms and fauna yes unfortunately we are mean to them only because the move of the 100% clean bed gets us all these pages with no recycles

while it may be possible to move or strain the bed to preserve more life than we typically do, it’s just not needed for a functioning reef and due to the safety risks we would still do a full cleaning before the move

on any tank move post we can surely find several who made transitions without any rinse, they moved the bed and dosed bottle bac to absorb spikes

the reason we don’t use that way is because it’s not consistent in outcome and what is consistent is invasion spikes due to mixing formerly stratified waste layers in the sand. Since half the jobs here are invasion remediation, we rinse each sandbed to head off that event just the same. Though we lose sandbed fauna, keeping them doesn’t convey the same strong outcomes we collect by removing them and never transferring waste


anytime a reef is deep cleaned it’s lifespan is increased, even if that removes a good portion of the bioload fauna we see in the sand.

 

[nastronaut]

Thank you for posting this is exactly what we like to plan for

I would recommend the full rinse move, only because that’s 100% safe with no recycle risk. You do have good life in the bed, but since it’s complexed with waste we recommend a full rip clean before moving and re set up, all the life you’d rinse from the bed comes back because the benthic animals on the rocks will simply transfer back into the bed over time, losing those animals to a rinse in the name of overall safety is what we do

*when disassembled you can pick through the sand for obvious animals like mini conchs or snails and try and flick them into a holding container for re seeding

but regarding sandbed worms and fauna yes unfortunately we are mean to them only because the move of the 100% clean bed gets us all these pages with no recycles

while it may be possible to move or strain the bed to preserve more life than we typically do, it’s just not needed for a functioning reef and due to the safety risks we would still do a full cleaning before the move

on any tank move post we can surely find several who made transitions without any rinse, they moved the bed and dosed bottle bac to absorb spikes

the reason we don’t use that way is because it’s not consistent in outcome and what is consistent is invasion spikes due to mixing formerly stratified waste layers in the sand. Since half the jobs here are invasion remediation, we rinse each sandbed to head off that event just the same. Though we lose sandbed fauna, keeping them doesn’t convey the same strong outcomes we collect by removing them and never transferring waste


anytime a reef is deep cleaned it’s lifespan is increased, even if that removes a good portion of the bioload fauna we see in the sand.

Thanks for the info, yes I think it'll be good for the long term health, I guess a few questions I have are:

-Must you remove all the coral and anemone from live rock you plan to clean? Or is there a method of cleaning the liverock without prying them off? (Namely I have 2 pieces of rock with coral/anemone firmly attached, I know prior it states not to relocate with the liverock due to detritus.)

-My sandbed is currently about 2 inches deep, crushed coral I know much of the post reccommends carribsea. With how much waste is in my best im not quite sure if I should just toss it and start fresh? Either way, (and I'll do more research), how deep do yall make your sandbed? (40gal, I do plan to get a pistol and goby pair after the move).

-Is there prep work I should do prior to the whole teardown and move? Such as cleaning a test rock, etc? Obviously I'll be making a few trips to the LFS that day for water, and I'll get clean buckets ready beforehand for the transfer and cleanings.

I'm sure I'll think of some more questions but those were my first thoughts. Mainly just wanting my corals to stay happy