Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

Bret Brinkmann

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
728
Reaction score
411
Location
Charlotte NC
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So I've read this whole thread now, as I said I would. There are a few things I think need to pointed out. I'm hoping this will spark some more in depth discussions. Overall I think you guys are doing good things here. Teaching reefers how to handle sand correctly will save countless livestock lives of all kinds.

1) The "live" in live sand refers to bacteria and NOT other lifeforms.

I still see people getting this wrong. Let's all get on the same page. Bacteria require 400X to 1000X magnification to see in a microscope. You can't see it any other way. They live on the surface and in the pores and the sand grains. Other lifeforms may live on top of the sand bed or burrow in it but they are NOT what makes the sand live. Only bacteria.

2) There are potentially several components to a cloud from sand.

The normal dustiness that is present when new, detritus that has built up over time, and other potential hazardous compounds like hydrogen sulfide which also build up over time. I don't think they are all harmful.

I'm not sure what is in the initial dust, but if anyone is interested I can get some ICP and DOC testing done on my 4 year old 4" DSB and even have it compared to new freash live sand dust. It would be nice to figure out exactly what it is.

I haven't ever noticed detritus to be harmful once a healthy bacteria population has taken hold. Any nitrites and ammonia is taken up immediately by bacteria. This is supported by the recent articles by Eli Meyer in the articles section entitled "Establishing a Healthy Microbiome in a New Aquarium Using Live Rock."

Hydrogen sulfide I think we can all agree is toxic though. I have been looking for ways to export S and found macroalgae, at least some, use S. I'm still looking into this deeper. However the buildup of such a compound isn't typical for a healthy sand bed and to me suggest a long term imbalance of importing various nutrients.

3) Sand beds are not an excuse to over stock and over fed your tank.

If you're using the sand as a diaper you're missing the point of sand, especially DSBs. Aside from the needs of certain livestock, sand is meant to supply additional surface area for nitrifying bacteria, not hold an infinite amount of poop. While bare bottom tanks have proven that sand isn't needed at all to establish the bacteria biome there is still a lack of data on the long term limits of rock vs sand.

Additionally DSBs provide for the anaerobic portion of the nitrification cycle. Something shallow sand beds do not. This layer is where the NO3 gets turned into diatomic N2, providing a means of N mass export. I have not seem any data comparing the abilities of LR to sand for this, especially in an aquarium environment, but I'd be very interested in it.

4) Sand clouds are the secondary reason livestock dies. Improper handling/prevention techniques are the primary reasons.

I agree and have witness livestock loss due to clouds. Afterwards we all say, "yeah I guess that was a dumb to not think the cloud was bad." Sand beds didn't kill our livestock, our ignorance did. You wouldn't under go a 12 hour transport of a fish in the middle of a Florida summer without some means of cooling. You wouldn't walk through a smoke cloud without covering your nose and mouth. So why would you subject your livestock to clouded water?

I did recently move my 29G tank and 10G fuge, both of which have DSBs. There were zero losses because I never disturbed the sand until the livestock was all in containers of clear tank water. I never cleaned the sand and still haven't.

5) CUC are too often miss used and held to extremely unreasonable expectations.

You wouldn't blindly add an unknown fish to your tank and then be shocked if things didn't work out. Why do we do this with CUC? Partly due to the disposable mentality most people have towards them. Treat them right and know their needs or please don't waste your time, money, and most importantly their lives. You don't add a lionfish for algae control. So why add an astrea snail to keep you sand clean. They won't do it. What you want are ceriths or certain conchs.

Sand can be maintained for over a decade with a combination of proper feeding habits and appropriate livestock. It's been done before. I actually want MORE cyanobacteria and algae growth in my sand because the snails that I am excited about keeping are running out of food. They do an amazing job of keeping invaders out because I bought the RIGHT animals for the job after doing my research.

6) Sand bed cleaning is NOT going to cure dinos.... Ever.

There is dino sticky in the algae forum. Read the 1st post. That sticky has more pages than this thread. If you follow the guidelines it will work. It did for me over a year ago and I had the worst case I'd ever seen or heard of.

The reason sand cleaning struggles to cute dinos is because removing them from the sand doesn't address the cause of their blooming in the first place, bottoming out nitrates and phosphates. For sand bed invading dinos, cleaning the sand is a good way to reduce their numbers but you NEED to dose inorganic nitrates and phosphates or they WILL come back.

I am willing to accept that there is an exception or two but the overwhelming amount of data shows dosing is the best approach by a long shot. So add inorganic sources of nitrate and phosphate to water after cleaning the sand if you do. They were in my sand too but I never cleaned it, just dosed and siphoned out the larger masses.

Dosing heavy amounts of bacteria like MicroBactor 7 have proven to work on sand dwelling dinos in conjunction with inorganic nitrate and phosphate dosing. These types of dinos are the most difficult to get rid of.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I agree with some of that, and glad you posted it is great discussion material agreed. Very glad you posted



wrangle at least 20 tanks to try something you think works this might change beliefs

Collect several moves between homes without changing or rinsing sand, by others who dont always state all details or know to...from the patterns your work thread shows we get to evaluate claims. *see how on post one those reefers managed to deep-stir up their whole beds somehow? -show live time outcomes for DSB's that shouldnt be disturbed, but were

account for accident control in your patterns shown


new caribsea wet live sand doesnt show up full of detritus, 100% agree its cloud is silt fraction and silicate, we remove it solely for diatom prevention + cloudless clean start.

removing it will not undo any measurable character of the sand. you cannot kill a tank by skipping the initial rinse, but page one is full of examples of how nonrinsing worked out poorly.

We rinse it because keeping the initial cloud has no benefit


am very interested in alternate home move, upgrade and downgrade and cyano fixes that preserve 100% of the sand in current condition, post any links that are available for that where avail
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
@Bret Brinkmann can we request work examples

we want to see other tanks running the method you’ve customized with them, live time feedback in place

we would have to exclude your own reef examples to maintain context here at page 32 **What about the possibility of beginning a new sand access thread, to ask for jobs/live time work**
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Final bump, a request for now only one or two examples, anything we can see regarding application

earning work in just one or two sand help threads, moves or invasion challenges, can be produced in a single day at the rate help requests are posted on our forum or in the nuisance algae forum, you could link those here.


*i agree there are thousands of aged sandbeds sitting there and doing fine, much of what you offered is agreed. We are experimenting with repeatable means to access sandbeds when required, or to offset cyano challenges, selecting what we think is safest way... all methods are up for evaluation and scrutiny for sure. We need balancing work threads showing easier means
 
Last edited:

xiholdtruex

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
648
Reaction score
493
Location
Homestead
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
moving in a few months and upgrading from my 12g cube up to a 75g , will be using live sand and will be rinsing it and using old sand from my 12g also will be posting a bunch on the progress. so expect long epic pictures and videos. actually giving the dr tims algae method a try at the moment
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hey great update can’t wait to see your move, we can just flip n clean this stuff all day long, bounce tank to tank. lol


here’s a repost to show a double transfer, out of one tank into another, then back to prior at 120+ gallons and really set corals I thought Jon worked precision transfer here

 

Bret Brinkmann

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Dec 29, 2015
Messages
728
Reaction score
411
Location
Charlotte NC
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I apologized in the thread from several months ago for coming off aggressively and I actually took the time to read this entire thing along with several of the links. I am coming here now in attempt to talk peacefully about this as I mentioned I would. I would appreciate the same courtesy so enough with the board line accusatory PMs please. Truce already.

I am going to start recommending new builds rinse sand because of the results here. I don't have a ton of spare time to look up all the threads where I've attempted to help people so please be patient with me while gather what I can. This is essentially data mining which takes time and I generally take the people I try to help out at their word without requesting video or pictorial evidence. It's difficult enough to get people to post how things turned out in my experience because once their issue is solved they move on. I will also start some new threads in time and see what becomes of them at your recommendation.

...
wrangle at least 20 tanks to try something you think works this might change beliefs

Collect several moves between homes without changing or rinsing sand, by others who dont always state all details or know to...from the patterns your work thread shows we get to evaluate claims. *see how on post one those reefers managed to deep-stir up their whole beds somehow? -show live time outcomes for DSB's that shouldnt be disturbed, but were...

I'll post my experience with moving my tank and follow it up with the 2nd move I have planned. Stay tuned, I am still building my cabinet now and that gets priority over being on the forums. Finding other examples will require data mining, which I will do, but again please be patient as you are asking for 20 examples that meet your relatively high level of detail for this forum in just a few days time. I just thought people would be interested in hearing about my first experience so far. Didn't mean to start anything.

account for accident control in your patterns shown

Due to my system setup, the only accident that could happen is if I dropped a rock while handling it. I have MP10s which if fall are no longer coupled to the motors and therefore can't blow sand around. I have no livestock that can burrow enough in the sand to dislodge a rock and I also push the rock deep into my 4" DSB which gives a surprising amount if support even when something does make a home under it. My LR is only stacked 2 high with multiple points of contact from at least 2 other rocks plus the back glass for 3 different supporting structures each. And because the bottom rocks are deeply buried in the sand, there is no opportunity for them to slide. I can't physically slide them in the sand myself due to how deep in the sand they are. If there is an avalanche in the tank, then there is an earthquake in my city. But my rockscape is only 2 rock high at the most. I can definitely see avalanches being an issue with taller scapes or scapes that are more than 2 rocks high.

new caribsea wet live sand doesnt show up full of detritus, 100% agree its cloud is silt fraction and silicate, we remove it solely for diatom prevention + cloudless clean start...

I agree the silty stuff has Si but does anyone know what else is in it? I've always wondered what exactly the silt is made of. If anyone has any links that would be awesome.

am very interested in alternate home move, upgrade and downgrade and cyano fixes that preserve 100% of the sand in current condition, post any links that are available for that where avail

I've mainly kept to the 2 algae and general invert forums so I can't say I know of any threads involving moving a tank with a DSB but give me some time and I'll check back in regardless of what I find. I can also look for threads involving sand work by livestock. I did create one detailing my experience on this topic though.


@Bret Brinkmann can we request work examples

we want to see other tanks running the method you’ve customized with them, live time feedback in place

we would have to exclude your own reef examples to maintain context here at page 32 **What about the possibility of beginning a new sand access thread, to ask for jobs/live time work**

You can request examples but you'll have to be patient. You have 3 back to back post and 2 PMs and that's a lot of info you're requesting. Why would my tank have to be excluded from this and what does the page number matter?

My sand cleaning work is performed by my cerith snails. The method is adding utilitarian snails and/or conchs and learning what their needs are basically. I don't believe that is a customized method so much as it is learning about the livestock before attempting to care for them. That said, I do see a surprising amount of reefers that tend to ignore or are unaware of their snails needs. But it's all detailed in the new thread I posted above and I'm happy to answer any specific questions.

As for my tank move, I credit the technique you detailed on page 1 of this thread minus the sand cleaning of course. I don't mean to say sand rinsing isn't of value, I was attempting to prove that moves without loss are possible if the livestock are not subjected to the clouding. I feel that it helps support that the clouding is the most important variable in dealing with sand beds. I didn't get pics or vids but I do have another move of my tank planed and I will document it any way you want. Time was a factor for my move so I unfortunately didn't have any for documentation, as I got done at 2am on a Sunday night and had to work the next morning. I posted about it anyway because I thought it would help show the value of keeping livestock separate in just a container of tank water as what it outlined on post one.

Final bump, a request for now only one or two examples, anything we can see regarding application

earning work in just one or two sand help threads, moves or invasion challenges, can be produced in a single day at the rate help requests are posted on our forum or in the nuisance algae forum, you could link those here.

*i agree there are thousands of aged sandbeds sitting there and doing fine, much of what you offered is agreed. We are experimenting with repeatable means to access sandbeds when required, or to offset cyano challenges, selecting what we think is safest way... all methods are up for evaluation and scrutiny for sure. We need balancing work threads showing easier means

I don't have a day to look all this up. I'm building my new stand/cabinet, I've had to work late a lot recently, and I have 3 HUGE family issues going on at once right now. Spare time for this sort of thing isn't going to come often for me right now. It actually took me days to piece this post together.

I agree that these examples can be searched for but you aren't asking for beginning examples, you're asking for successful examples. Examples that are already completed, which means data mining and time. So please don't be demanding but patient.

You didn't specifically mention dinos but thought I would be thorough. Below is a link to the dino thread. I didn't think I needed to link it because it's a sticky in the nuisance algae forum as I mentioned previously. But you're right to push for thoroughness so here it is. I notice you commenting in post 1602 but I'm not sure it was your first post on the thread or how much of it you read.


In that thread on the first post is where you'll find information on what type of environment dinos thrive in and hense how to avoid them, along with other relevant useful information and links to sources. Among the links is one entitled "What is the end game?" The link is to post 1099 of the same thread. That lays out the strategy for beating dinos I and others have used. None of this stuff was developed or customized by me.

In between posts 1 and 1099 you'll find the development of the treatment. Afterwards you'll notice more people using it with success. All of this with pictures and videos throughout.

Because it is over 400 pages now, I thought it was unreasonable to ask anyone to read the whole thing. But I do feel it is reasonable to ask people to read the first post and the end game post. My personal experiences with dinos are there starting on post 1650. It also serves a group work thread where anyone can go for assistance. Because it is a group work thread the number of examples you want to see are dependent on how much of it you are willing to read. I hope everyone can accept this one group example (that is a sticky none the less) vs 20 individual examples.

After my success with that method I kept up with the thread to try and help others. I eventually moved away from it in favor of responding to the many new dino help threads in the nuisance algae forum I kept seeing. An inherent problem with getting 20 before and after examples is that results vs dinos can't be accomplished in a day like the method outlined here vs cyanobacteria, diatoms, and other algae. (Which are nicely demonstrated and documented here by the way. Nice work everyone.) During that wait period a lot of people end up not posting their results.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
we love large posts they're welcome here/understood all points nice job

I apologize too, glad you have some jobs coming up we enjoy the documentation on any degree of access
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The work on that thread showed me that rip cleans will not fix all comers agreed. There is an aspect of nutrient tuning and competitive microorganism tuning that seems nearly required in order to manage the really bad dino challenges. Alexreefer tried our rip cleans and it didn't work as stand alone for his dinos, he continued experimenting with balances for ten pages before finding a combo that works, his raw persistence was the breakpoint for sure
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
a bump because I want some sandbed, cyano, or rip clean works.

lets fix some tanks that otherwise might be heading towards being destroyed.

lets do the opposite of what any reefer would recommend in a poll, only to log outcomes no others reefer has using legit means. saving tanks is plain saving tanks... ya'll wanna do that? throw out a sandbed challenge system, or an upcoming tank move so we can make it go perfectly. we will change nothing from the prior pages, execute that in your tank, and your tank will turn out like Jon's.


So, we need to change sandbed practices in reefing into preventative vs reactive. It means we might have to disregard nearly all the stuff we've been passionately told about sandbeds. can you imagine patterns drastically changing here when we're out to page 100? it'll be the same presentation reasons (hands off, detritus caused challenges) and on page 100 Ill still be convincing people that tap water doesnt kill bacteria it can save your tank from doom. The opposite of what the masses think is the truth about sandbeds, a new dawn of clean running is coming for this hobby, we are tired of losing reefs and wasting animals to detritus storage firm rules old sandbed technique.
 
Last edited:

Nami

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
57
Reaction score
40
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Not exactly rinsing, but does stirring the sandbed a good idea as part of maintenance activities? The stirring will create a cloud of silt/detritus.

I'm not sure whether the cloud will end up getting picked up by the skimmer and also whether the stirring end up burying detritus on the surface deeper into the sand, which makes things even worse long term.

I really want a clean looking sandbed without having to rip it all out every 2nd year due to terrible algae buildup.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
thank you tons for posting~

see Jon's tank, page one second link. That's our mine canary thread, whatever he does for that huge sandbed is what we'll do. he wants to reduce future rip cleans, and its a very big tank where another takedown job would be backbreaking.

I feel that when starting from a rip clean, preventative stirring might be ideal. Here's someone who does just that, I endorse that method, its a preventative one:



rip the sand clean using surgical skip cycle means. clean, cloudless perfection like his, carefully isolating out the fish etc. When its all back together like he did, then that thread from Blusop really should prevent you having to re rip, and, you are casting up detritus regularly, it wont be from anoxic dangerous zones. it'll be true marine snow feed for your reef :)

that's a legit use for detritus in a reef, suspending it as feed occasionally and before it becomes the causative of most reefing headaches. Stick stirring your sand also doesnt kill its micro fauna like we do, I think its a fine balance.

we kill the microfauna by harsh cleaning because I can't find another sand fix thread where they're maintained while reefs are moved, fixed etc with the sand left alone. too many crashes happen that way, one is unfolding as we speak / link #1 page 1.
 
Last edited:

Mastiffsrule

Where ever you go, there you are, so be nice 2 you
View Badges
Joined
Feb 10, 2019
Messages
8,440
Reaction score
33,571
Location
Charlotte
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
what up?

Just curious your take on real live gulf sand. I did my current build with live sand and rock that was 2 days out of the ocean from Tampa and into the tank, Box to tank, no cycle, stocked with fish next day.

i can’t see vacuum or stirring the sand, a lot of it is mud. would this be a case of leave it be and stock up on CuC or maybe a light stirring now and then? The cloud goes away fast since it is mud like and not fine sand.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Agreed, we're paying extra for the stuff. We should simply track it as hands off + untouched for a few moves examples before taking action.

If it starts to get cyano, or can't be disturbed without loss as it ages, we rinse it

You are now getting to test if paying more for truly live sand absolves us of the work required to keep typical sand/ detritus from killing tanks-that sand is truly live, truly diverse unlike caribsea from a bag. Will the sum total of that life impart natural balancing to the bed? hopefully u can keep that tank going a long time without unnatural disturbance, its helpful to science to start getting work patterns on that hq sand
 
Last edited:

Nami

Community Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 4, 2018
Messages
57
Reaction score
40
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I feel that when starting from a rip clean, preventative stirring might be ideal. Here's someone who does just that, I endorse that method, its a preventative one:


rip the sand clean using surgical skip cycle means. clean, cloudless perfection like his, carefully isolating out the fish etc. When its all back together like he did, then that thread from Blusop really should prevent you having to re rip, and, you are casting up detritus regularly, it wont be from anoxic dangerous zones. it'll be true marine snow feed for your reef :)

Thanks for the link! Its truly amazing he is able to keep his sand that pristine after 2 years with just simple stirring of the substrate.

However, I would be lying if I say i can do that on a daily basis but will add the stirring process to my weekly routine, hopefully it will be sufficient to make a difference.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Based on patterns here I have to admit rip clean start, add gobies or busy fish, monthly stick stirring plus a refugium charger kit of wiggling pods (gammarids too, not just microscopic pods, the good ones we see as busy ants in a Berlin setup) added after a few weeks might be the baddest substrate setup around.
none of the arrangements are working against each other, it’s synergistic. The initial rip can be the only one if the other supports balance input

a very low fish bioload placing waste directly in a display sandbed matters as years go by, as things compound. We can engineer very long lifespan systems if we will enjoy a fraction of the normal fish bioloading actual nitrification will support. We must factor fish’s whole waste contributions vs whether they help eject waste via behavior so filters can catch it or in offset we can design systems with less surface area, catch points, which is why bare bottom is so popular.


For sure some pods will be eaten but they also harbor in live rocks to reproduce / a portion survives


a portion survives even a rip clean. Right now I have worms in my sandbed and this is the third new bed for the vase/complete replacements still get bugs from live rock gifting.
 
Last edited:

CoralClasher

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
1,572
Reaction score
902
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Two weeks after my rip clean I had lots of worms and pods in the sand. I’m not worried about the worm population after the next rip clean at all. I still wish I could have gotten an order of live sand and stuff but it’s still too cold here. I will have the microbiome tested before and after the next rip clean.
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That is such a complete picture coming up, we will link your results mighty quick
 

pharazon

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 2, 2018
Messages
476
Reaction score
810
Rating - 100%
1   0   0
I am about to upgrade my two year old tank, which features an undisturbed sand bed of approximately 2 inch depth. Part of the sand is calcified and hardened, but I would like to reuse as much as possible.

Would my sand be a good candidate for the rinse method?
 
OP
OP
brandon429

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,498
Reaction score
23,578
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thank you very much for posting

hey on that type of swap I’d recommend a new bed replacement since the going science nowadays is still in favor of calcium carbonate + uptaking phosphate during extended exposure to waste. Nitrate is not something that binds into the matrix of the substrate / have read in Randy’s forum/ but they’re still remarking about po4 uptake so it appears the safest hedge is to reinstall only clean sand if accessible

if we need to use this sand rinsing out any waste impaction is still safe just thinking about that phosphate exposure when considering the new few years running after setup
 
Back
Top