The opportunity cost of one Vortech MP60 - Greed in the aquarium hobby. Apex & Vortech & More

[Halal Hotdog]

Seems like heated people on both sides. On another thread it seems like Ecotech's patent is under litigation and may not be renewed. If that is the case and they lose the patent then get ready for some inexpensive versions from other companies. It is absurd a $700 power head comes with only a one year warranty. Especially keeping in mind no tank has a single power head.

 

[Stanzo13]

+1
The magnets alone are probably over $200.
Here is the one that is very similar to the one in the MP60.
https://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DZ08-N52&cat=168
These are just like what they use, not the exact magnets.

Go on Amazon and search for magnets they are cheap AF

 

[MSB123]

Go on Amazon and search for magnets they are cheap AF

Not powerful N52 Axially magnetized ones. Harder to make and more expensive

 

[Dimmy007]

I believe in you pay for what you get. Whether it is a part for a car, a TV , or a saltwater aquarium part. I use to install TV's, speakers, cameras, AV equipment. I would always recommend the a certain brand for my clients. But I stood behind what I recommend because that is what I trusted in and that's what I felt had the best product for that application. . Nothing is a guarantee. But there is definitely a certain expectation between certain products. For example a Sony XBR TV is going to have a better picture than an Element TV. Am i going to say it will last longer, NO. Because nothing can guarantee lifespan of a product. There are products that are built better than other products there fore they are more expensive than others. You're not going to walk into a house and say I cant believe you spent that kind of money on that Sony XBR TV when it you could have gotten an Element TV for half the price. Because if you did, whomsoever house you walked into should kick you right the heck out. People by products because they believe and trust in them. If they can afford said product and trust said product then they buy said product. No one is trying to rip anyone off. It is the cost of business. I now own bar and restaurant. I specialize in bloody Marys. My bloody marys are more expensive then everyone else's in the city. Yet I sell more bloody marys then all of them. WHY? Because we provide the best service possible and serve the best product we can to make the customer happy.

 

[Bpb]

Lol, no. Thats assembly, repair and QC. My uncle works for Jasper Rubber. So, I know what machines do what. There is no injection machines there. That's all product repair and fine touch before assembling parts. The reason that's done is so they don't have to pay QC at the source. Its good business practice if you want higher looking product and more control on the quality. The parts or more likely sourced out to another country. Just assembled here in the US.

Yeah all of you go ahead and take apart your dry side of your vortech and report back with what the sticker says on the stator and circuit....I can tell you it’s nowhere even in either American continent. That was a disappointing discovery.

 

[stacksoner]

I read your earlier posts and was honestly impressed with your writing. You have undeniable talent, and I'm sure you're well aware of this.

You're not frustrated with EcoTech.... you're frustrated with yourself. Here's some real talk...you can make as much money as you want being a professional writer, but only if you're willing to give everything to developing your style and becoming the best.

The woman who wrote the Harry Potter books made over $1 billion and Harry Potter sucks. Make it happen and stay positive.

 

[Ariel V Rosa]

Your uncle's employment at Jasper Rubber provides you the details of Ecotech's manufacturing processes? I'm impressed! Sounds like a Holiday Inn Express commercial

Other forums I'm on don't have weekly or daily posts complaining that the respective hobby has expensive options. You choose what you buy, I'm amazed this is 9 pages of

Ant there it is right there, this is the reason nithing in the hobby will ever be reasonably priced or come down naturally as technology ages.

.... some hobbyist wear getting price gouged and taken to the cleaners like a badge of honor. Like it places them above people questioning why are they paying $500 dollars, for something thats been on the market for years and litterally cost maybe $50 bucks to make and put in a box.

In the world I run in we call companies like Ecotech "whale hunters", they really aren't interested in joe shmo that needs to think about paying his mortgage or buy a pump.

So, with that said, as other posters have said, if you have a problem with the price, please do buy another product, as this company is not targeting you.

I am a firm beleiver in capitalism... with time markets balance out as long as competition is fair and allowed to compete.

I really do think the ecotech pumps are nice, but I can put that kind if cash to better use in my tank; or any if my other ridiculously costly hobbies.

 

[ca1ore]

I don't know the ETM business specifically, but I imagine its like most electronics manufacturers these days - designed in house, parts and components made/sourced from outside suppliers (some domestic, others international) and then either assembled in house or outsourced. Even the big names in the industry often don't actually make their own stuff. But, as I noted earlier, made in China (or any part of Asia) does not mean poor quality. It's all about the level of quality that you're willing to pay for (driven largely by the selling price point).

I'm curious about what the price 'gouging' complainers think is a fair margin for something like the MP60? Let's assume the new price is going to be $699. Average profit margin in the electronics industry is a bit below 7%. I'd imagine ETM probably sells the MP60 to places like BRS for something like $500, maybe even a bit less than that. Parts, labor, freight, admin/executive salaries, A&P …… don't think they're making $200 per unit LOL. Even if they are, good for them. They took the business risk, invested time and effort.

 

[Neoalchemist]

This gets weirder, ecotech has a parent company that is the same as one of the later Neptune systems shell corps I found.

This is why I have no problem buying knock offs. The American market mostly gives away its moral high ground. Once the moral "grey area" is gone all I have to decide is which product and price is right for whichever application at that piont in time. This is a tug of war and both sides are already muddy and if either side drops the rope we all lose. I come down in the middle. I buy used, I buy new, I buy cheap, and I buy expensive. I guess as a wallet voter I'm an Indepentant.

 

[Ariel V Rosa]

I don't know the ETM business specifically, but I imagine its like most electronics manufacturers these days - designed in house, parts and components made/sourced from outside suppliers (some domestic, others international) and then either assembled in house or outsourced. Even the big names in the industry often don't actually make their own stuff. But, as I noted earlier, made in China (or any part of Asia) does not mean poor quality. It's all about the level of quality that you're willing to pay for (driven largely by the selling price point).

I'm curious about what the price 'gouging' complainers think is a fair margin for something like the MP60? Let's assume the new price is going to be $699. Average profit margin in the electronics industry is a bit below 7%. I'd imagine ETM probably sells the MP60 to places like BRS for something like $500, maybe even a bit less than that. Parts, labor, freight, admin/executive salaries, A&P …… don't think they're making $200 per unit LOL. Even if they are, good for them. They took the business risk, invested time and effort.

Profit margin for who is the question..... the retailer maybe gets 7%, the distributor gets a cut and the manufacturer gets the lions share. You cant honestly break and ecotech pump down price out all of its components, assembly, packaging and come up any where north of 50 bucks. They use commodity electronics developed by the opensource community, proprietary mechanisms based in patents that could easily be invalidated if someone was so inclined to spend the money to do it. They didn't invent magnetically moving objects through glass, there is nothing novel about it. In the chemistry field using magnetically coupled drive mechanisms has been common practice before Ecotech even existed.

If someone was inclined and motivated enough with the proper funding and knowledge of pre-existing work creations the whole patent would be easily tossed out. Then what?

All it takes is one person with cash to blow just to make a point. The "Vortech" patent claims novelty because its being used in a water filtration system. That novelty is only novel if you ignore the base construct of transmitting a magnetic field to interact with another ferrous material through a barrier. There is tons of prior art, there is no need to invalidate though an earlier filing like one company tried to do back in 2011.

Like I said... all it takes is one ticked off whale to throw money at patent lawyers and send this patent down the fiery trenches of invalidation. Tons of prior art.

 

[ca1ore]

Profit margin for who is the question..... the retailer maybe gets 7%, the distributor gets a cut and the manufacturer gets the lions share. You cant honestly break and ecotech pump down price out all of its components, assembly, packaging and come up any where north of 50 bucks. They use commodity electronics developed by the opensource community, proprietary mechanisms based in patents that could easily be invalidated if someone was so inclined to spend the money to do it. They didn't invent magnetically moving objects through glass, there is nothing novel about it. In the chemistry field using magnetically coupled drive mechanisms has been common practice before Ecotech even existed.

Sorry mate, I don't think you have even the foggiest sense of what you speak. I would suggest that just the magnets are more than $50 LOL. Price them out on a place like KJ if you doubt. Either way, it's moot. You either see value in a piece of equipment or you don't; if you don't, buy something that better meets your sense of value. This thread has become tiresome.

 

[topjimmy]

Thankyou for your comments so far everyone. This thread has been a resounding success. There have been almost 500 views and 40+ people viewing the thread at any given time for 6 hours. The disconnect as to why the price gaps are so large seems to be a general interest among the community. We've got some behind the scenes feedback from both sides of business and industry.



I watched this brs talk at work today. It puts into perspective what the lfs have to struggle through with distributor pricing. Both the LFSs and consumers are upset with these American distributors.


Maybe some more fuel for discussion... Give it a watch if you can.

I couldn't hear half of what he said, my brain kept telling me it was the puffy shirt episode of Seinfeld.

 

[LionHeart2017]

Speaking of value for money, what skimmer should I get next, I want to upgrade my bubble Magus curve 5, we all know that skimmers are expensive so I'm looking for performance over anything else?

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Speaking of value for money, what skimmer should I get next, I want to upgrade my bubble Magus curve 5, we all know that skimmers are expensive so I'm looking for performance over anything else?

I just picked up an aquamaxx 280 for 310$
Its rated for a 250 with heavy bioload. Running a 210
Also only runs 27 watts
aquacave has some 10$ coopins

 

[Oshengems]

The hate is real! The hate and bitterness in this hobby is real.

Again there is options you don’t have to buy anything you feel is not worth you spending your hard earned money on.

 

[TheHarold]

This is capitalism. The buyers set the prices. Get used to it.

If you think you can introduce a similar quality product for less, go for it!

Do you also complain that a Bugatti is a million bucks?

"Oh, I could get thirty Toyotas for that price!"

On that note, thanks BRS for the heads up about the pricing!

 

[Fish_Sticks]

On that note, thanks BRS for the heads up about the pricing!

Can buy a pc battery backup on ebay for 40$ lol. keep wasting your money dude.

 

[TheHarold]

Can buy a pc battery backup on ebay for 40$ lol. keep wasting your money dude.

Here’s the thing- I don’t care lol. Just because you have to penny pinch doesn’t mean you need to be better towards people that don’t!

I find it ironic that you keep complaining about the price and company.... yet are clearly envious about the product they provide.

Go play with your black boxes and Jebao RW-4s. It’s okay. Nobody’s will hurt you.

 

[Fish_Sticks]

Here’s the thing- I don’t care lol. Just because you have to penny pinch doesn’t mean you need to be better towards people that don’t!

I dont have to pinny pinch. Im 24 and my house is paid off. Its paid off cause I dont pay 700$ for powerheads.

 

[TheHarold]

I dont have to pinny pinch. Im 24 and my house is paid off. Its paid off cause I dont pay 700$ for powerheads.

Well then why are you so upset about there being $700 powerheads in the market? Go buy your $50 Jebaos, and let people spend money how they like