The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Paul B]

My main concern is with diseases that progress rapidly and can take out a tank like velvet more so than ich which can be managed and allowed to persist so fish develop an immunity. Wouldn't a velvet infection progress and weaken a fish so fast that the fish would never get a chance to boost their immune system to fight and attain immunity?

To answer this I would only be guessing and I am not good at guessing. I have been trying to guess Christie Brinkley's phone number since she was 28 but so far have only gotten quotes on Solar Electric.
All I can "guess" is that there are so many parasites in the sea and in wholesalers tanks that all fish carry some of them. (again this is subjective of the mood of everyone on here and both of the researchers who make a living (not a very lucrative one I would imagine) studying these things.

The few actually immune tanks on here, which happen to be the longest living systems on here, (I think) have never had an outbreak of velvet that I know of.
And if they did, I have not heard of it and if they did, they didn't have an immune tank, which IMO means immune from everything except maybe fire or Grand Kids. I once had a bar of soap that I carved into a fish. I noticed one day that my skimmer was overflowing on the floor and the tank had an inch of green bubbles at the top. I then found the fish soap.

If I get a fish that is near death from copper, jumping out, over quarantining, Rap music etc, I don't put it in my tank. Not because my other fish will get sick, but if it dies, like some do, I want to be able to fish the thing out and not watch it rot in the front of the glass or have my big decorator crab carry it around for a week just to show off.

I have never had an outbreak of velvet. I added a fish yesterday and the LFS where I got it from was horrible. Many of their dead fish were still in the tanks and some in an advanced state of deteriation so they were in there for days. Many were scratching and many were on the floor. I don't like buying from such a place but since I moved, there are very few places here (like none) and I needed some corals. I bought one, which was the only one he had and that wasn't in good condition and it was not cheap.

I had to go to a doctor and this place was on my way home. The fish is fine and will soon mate with my other one who lost his mate to old age.
I also have a Queen Anthius who will soon die of old age and I want to replace her. (or him, I am not sure if there is a politically correct way to say Her or Him but if there is, add it here) I hope not to buy them at that particular store. But if I do, I will just add them to my tank like I always do.
Disease is a non issue in my house and I never think about it unless I re visit this thread.

 

[Thomashtom]

really

 

[Paul B]

Yes, "Really"

 

[PghReef]

Well so far so good. Bought the blue hippo Saturday and and noticed the spots that afternoon. She also did some of the classic flashing on the rocks but did not swim towards powerheads. Sunday and Monday I noticed the larger spots were gone but there appeared to be new smaller salt sized spots, not terrible but definitely more than when purchased. I fed lrs reef frenzy twice daily and watched her demolish every piece of food I threw in the tank. By Tuesday night I could not notice any spots at all and this morning all still appears good. No more flashing, very active and healthy looking, no spots, and always hungry. No spots on the clowns have appeared either.

Still way to early to call it a success but it's a starting point. I dont believe in ever saying anything with a reef tank is a success until it is taken down and you're out of the hobby or I may just go home from work and find a disaster that night for allowing myself to become to confident

Have a long ways to go and I will continue to monitor. I now know I have ich in the tank so it will be interesting to see is minor outbreaks occur with new additions or large water changes. Looking back on this I did purchase a melanarus wrasse with my last tank that flashed a lot after addition and I was concerned about flukes or ich. After a couple weeks I never noticed the bahavior again and the fish lived for approximently 5 or 6 years with me before it died of what I can assume was old age. I plan to go slow and wait awhile before any further fish additions so I can monitor for any signs of disease reoccurance from the normal life cycle of ich. I'll be happy to document any successes or failures with this method for others to read about.

I do think it is important to note that I consider myself an experienced but still young reefer. I am not an expert or pioneer by any means but certainly not a novice either. A lot of things we do and experiment with are like playing with fire in this hobby. Pushing boundries is how we advance as a hobby and even help contribute to the marine biology industry as a whole. Learning from others experiences and continuing the experimentation is great but we need to be responsible about it. Whether or not you believe Paul's method is responsible or hot rocks reef is over stocked, I can only assume reefers with that much experience have plan b and c lined up in case things go wrong. Having backups in place and going about it in a smart manner is what separates the responsible experimenters from the irresponsible wantta bes Imo.

 

[Hermie]

I had to go to a doctor and this place was on my way home. The fish is fine and will soon mate with my other one who lost his mate to old age.
I also have a Queen Anthius who will soon die of old age and I want to replace her. (or him, I am not sure if there is a politically correct way to say Her or Him but if there is, add it here) I hope not to buy them at that particular store.

if the fish doesn't have a preference, it's them

 

[Paul B]

If "them" means more than one, and I don't know if it is a male or female, what do I call "it"?

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Back in December when I first say your post about this Paul I was dubious, but was willing to remain open minded. So I shifted what I fed my tanks from primarily just mysis and other frozen foods, and added whole silversides that I minced up along with freshly shucked oysers, clams and mussels. Since doing this I have noticed my fish and corals all appear much happier, and significantly increased color. I also added some clowns and a pair of tangs one to each tank. Both tangs developed a few white spots I knew had to be ick, but I resisted freaking out and kept feeding my slurry of fresh/frozen foods. The tangs cleared up in a matter of a couple days with no other signs of issues. Keeping a close eye on things hoping I wasn't about have to fire up an emergency hospital tank, to my surprise not a single other fish in either tank developed any sign of ick or related symptoms. It's entirely possible that the other inhabitants of my tanks had already developed a level on immunity to the parasites, and the tangs picked up what was in the tanks already. I have no way to be sure, and I know it's only been four months since I started doing it your way, and so far the results have been very encouraging. So unless something changes, I'll keep doing it this way now as everything does seem so much happier.

 

[Hermie]

If "them" means more than one, and I don't know if it is a male or female, what do I call "it"?

it's a homonym

More Definitions for them
them
pronoun
English Language Learners Definition of them
—used to refer to certain people, animals, or things as the objects of a verb or preposition
: him or her

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/them

 

[MnFish1]

@Paul B 800 5551212

 

[Paul B]

OK, so I have a fish swimming in my tank and I want to buy the one that carries the eggs. What do I call that Homonym? I want to be PC.

@Paul B 800 5551212

OK, whats this. Remember I am old and come from a different time zone on another planet. ​

 

[Rybren]

I have been trying to guess Christie Brinkley's phone number since she was 28 but so far have only gotten quotes on Solar Electric.

@Paul B 800 5551212

You are getting old Paul

 

[Paul B]

So is She.

 

[PghReef]

Well its officially a fail for me. Not to doubt Paul's method as you cant compare a tank that was started with all dry rock and sand and all contents are a year or less old with a 40 year old ecosystem that used fresh mud and water from the ocean. The ich is back and seems worse then before, maybe if I let it run its course it would clear on it's own, but seeing it spread to my 7 year old clown who has never been diseased before makes me doubt it. Dont want to cause any further suffering so will pull em out for a hospital tank ans fallow period.

 

[Thaxxx]

Has there ever been a study on how Cyanide affects fishes ammunity to fight disease? After all about 90% of the fish we keep were captured this way. Dispite how some say other method are being used. The combination of cyanide, the stress of capture and transport, and probably not the best condition of water perameters while at different stops along the way to our tanks. I'm kinda surprised the mortality rate isn't higher than it is.

 

[Lasse]

Has there ever been a study on how Cyanide affects fishes ammunity to fight disease? After all about 90% of the fish we keep were captured this way.

Any prove for this?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Doctorgori]

Didn’t read the whole thread but just guessing there are plenty of reefers like me that has concluded not all species quarantine well... not sure what to say other than sometimes I wish I had ,,,sometimes no

 

[Lowell Lemon]

Has there ever been a study on how Cyanide affects fishes ammunity to fight disease? After all about 90% of the fish we keep were captured this way. Dispite how some say other method are being used. The combination of cyanide, the stress of capture and transport, and probably not the best condition of water perameters while at different stops along the way to our tanks. I'm kinda surprised the mortality rate isn't higher than it is.

Most collectors are going away from that method. This was used most often in the Phillipines and it has caused widespread die offs in corals as well. Back in the 1980's a couple of foundations were created to stop this collection method and included training the collectors with nets for live collection. There was a test under development at the time to determine use of cyanide and not sure it ever made it into the distribution network. The local collectors in the Philippines also used dynamite as a food fishing method causing more damage to the coral reefs. It seems to me a man named Steve Robinson was very active during that time in trying to end the practices described. At the time Quality Marine would only buy from sources that could prove live capture methods without drugs....not sure what the situation is now.

Never saw any evidence to support 80 percent loss rates anywhere in the industry ever. Use logic to see that the trade would be unsustainable at those loss rates. At those rates a clown or damsel would cost hundreds if not thousands dollars each due to the high transportation costs and the need to cover for the loss of money on each shipment. Simple not a credible claim period and I don't care who made it. This is one of those urban legends that is repeated enough until it takes on some simblance of a "truth". I am familiar with multiple aspects of the importation and trade of marine fish and invertebrates and have even visited some of the largest distribution centers in the United States. I recently had a chance to survey the largest outdoor market in the world in Bangkok and can verify no such losses there. There was not one dead fish visible in any tanks or in the bagged fish or in the outdoor sections of the trade there on my visit. I have seen more dead fish at Petco and Pet smart than in all of the above mentioned sources.

 

[Paul B]

In the 70s and 80s cyanide was used extensively. When they used to collect fish in the Caribbean I saw them collect them in large baited traps.

but just guessing there are plenty of reefers like me that has concluded not all species quarantine well.

This is true. Copperbands, moorish idols and most tangs hate being in quarantine and loads of them are killed in quarantine. Just search the disease threads.

 

[Stigigemla]

There is a fake method of analysing a Cyanide breakdown product in the water the fishes are in. Very promising but there is a problem.
The analyses shows levels corresponding to several lethal doses for the fish in the test vat.
Read this: https://www.reef2rainforest.com/201...s-that-debunk-cyanide-test-for-aquarium-fish/

 

[Thaxxx]

But my question was if there is any study showing a correlation between cyanide capture and the weakening of their immunity system?