The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

[3. IMHO. There is no correct 'method'. I see no difference between Paul's method and Humblefish's method. I have yet to hear any logical discussion as to why one method is better or worse.]

Less stress, expense and work on operator. Is that a logical goal, if the results are the same.

Rather than continue to discuss this here - I PM'd you. In short - its a logical goal, but I don't see any less stress, expense or work comparing one method to the other.

 

[Subsea]

Rather than continue to discuss this here - I PM'd you. In short - its a logical goal, but I don't see any less stress, expense or work comparing one method to the other.

You misunderstood my meaning. Not so for the sake of this discussion was I referring to decrease of stress, expense and work.
I was referring to the operator who exercises zero quarantine with success. He will be rewarded with less expense, work and hopefully stress.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

im not planning on qt'in my fish once my tank reaches 50! lolol. yeap - the ole switcheroo. really guys i would love to experiment on pauls tank. i was even thinking about buying him some sick fish to see what happens - but then i remembered paul is loaded and he should be buying me fish.

i used to not qt until all my fish got sick, i guess my tank just doesnt have the biodiversity to destroy ich, velvet uronema brooklynella or what have you - that or poseidon was ticked at me for not sacrificing a 100 bulls that year. very sad state of affairs really.

 

[Subsea]

im not planning on qt'in my fish once my tank reaches 50! lolol. yeap - the ole switcheroo. really guys i would love to experiment on pauls tank. i was even thinking about buying him some sick fish to see what happens - but then i remembered paul is loaded and he should be buying me fish.

i used to not qt until all my fish got sick, i guess my tank just doesnt have the biodiversity to destroy ich, velvet uronema brooklynella or what have you - that or poseidon was ticked at me for not sacrificing a 100 bulls that year. very sad state of affairs really.

I saw your thread about dosing Coppersafe in your 210G display tank. How has that worked for you?

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

i answered over there but it worked great until i added a coral on a rock and my powder blue ended up with a spot. so its back in the tank and 3 more because im building a 300.

i also recently bought fish that came with velvet, uronema and brooklynella. so i have a lot more than just copper here

 

[Paul B]

i was even thinking about buying him some sick fish to see what happens - but then i remembered paul is loaded and he should be buying me fish.

I responded to this multiple times and asked people to bring me a fish with velvet, ich, dropsy, polio or Bubonic plague and drop it in my tank. No one took me up on it.

Now it is off the table because I have nothing to prove.

 

[HuduVudu]

You can see my build thread for what lack of QT does.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

I responded to this multiple times and asked people to bring me a fish with velvet, ich, dropsy, polio or Bubonic plague and drop it in my tank. No one took me up on it.

Now it is off the table because I have nothing to prove.

i'll come out on my boat once i install a 500 gallon gas tank. idk if itll fit on my 17. maybe i should learn how to use that sailboat in my backyard. how long will it take to sail from the jersey shore to long island?

 

[dvgyfresh]

I don’t believe in QT either , seems to bring stress to fish and I have seen many threads of fish dying in QT (yes could’ve died in DT as well but QT is a stress trigger) I’ve gotten a tang with white dots all over and all I had to do was feed nori and mysis soaked in selcon , 2 weeks later no white dots and fat. I also had a splendid dottyback that was flashing and soaking the mysis with selcon has stopped that as well.

 

[MnFish1]

You misunderstood my meaning. Not so for the sake of this discussion was I referring to decrease of stress, expense and work.
I was referring to the operator who exercises zero quarantine with success. He will be rewarded with less expense, work and hopefully stress.

So was I. I do not think that this method reduces stress, expense or work. We are talking about 'this discussion' not someone that just dumps fish into a tank (that would decrease stress, work and potentially expense). Lets put it this way - Why - ever - would someone feel the need for quarantine - and go through the procedures - if it was 'simple' to avoid it. It seems silly to me on the surface. No one would do it. The reality is people want 'cheap fish'. Cheap fish are often 'in bad shape'. They benefit from either medication or some quarantine procedure and then medication. Expensive fish have been kept, survived and do well just dropping them in - whether you feed them frozen food, flake food, live food etc. IMHO - internet fish - do not do well. Fish picked up from an LFS do better - and fish that are in the LFS for a while - do the best. Just my opinion. (thats my 'method'). I havent lost a fish in 5 years.

 

[reeferKen]

Another No Quarantine reefer with 25+ years of reefing experience

 

[HuduVudu]

It's sad to me that any of this is controversial. The title of the above video is even sadder.

It's WAY harder to not panic when your fish is not doing well and stay the course than to freak out and dump medication in for the fish. The medication sure makes the aquarist feel better but can they see through their own fear to assess the real situation. Based on my own background and my observations of others the answer is resoundingly no.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

So was I. I do not think that this method reduces stress, expense or work. We are talking about 'this discussion' not someone that just dumps fish into a tank (that would decrease stress, work and potentially expense). Lets put it this way - Why - ever - would someone feel the need for quarantine - and go through the procedures - if it was 'simple' to avoid it. It seems silly to me on the surface. No one would do it. The reality is people want 'cheap fish'. Cheap fish are often 'in bad shape'. They benefit from either medication or some quarantine procedure and then medication. Expensive fish have been kept, survived and do well just dropping them in - whether you feed them frozen food, flake food, live food etc. IMHO - internet fish - do not do well. Fish picked up from an LFS do better - and fish that are in the LFS for a while - do the best. Just my opinion. (thats my 'method'). I havent lost a fish in 5 years.

a bit flawed but basically right - some people want to save money but sometimes the more expensive fish is cheaper. tsmaquatics has expensive fish, i have bought there. their fish are quarantined and even more important they have been eating for 30+ days. tsmaquatics is also an online seller, but they are expensive fish and they are fully qt and most likely in perfect health. online fish can be good. tsm is also a lfs for me as sometimes i drive the 90 minutes over there to pick up fish. the owner of tsm is an expert as far as fish are concerned, he comes from public aquaria and has the correct experience and know how. spend $100 on a copper butterfly that stops eating the third day you have it and let me know if you are second guessing yourself at that point.

nyaquatics fish are usually not as expensive, but they are not fully qt. they get a couple of rounds of worming meds and are kept in low level copper so the parasites do not get a leg up on the fish. the owner of ny aquatics is super knowledgeable - more so than me or 99%of the people i know, i do not know his professional background but his stock is good. nyaqautics sells online fish and his fish are good they have come in the mail. he is also a lfs if you are in yonkers or westchester. so online fish are good and lfs are good.

these two men have different business models, each probably does OK financially. there are some fish i would rather buy fully qt like butterflies, anthias, wrasses. why? because either qt is difficult on these fish or its difficult to get them to eat. some fish are rather easy to qt and i'd rather save $$$ and do it myself. tbh i also enjoy to qt fish as i believe it another part of the hobby. make no mistake qt is not easy and can be costly if you make a mistake. so your savings can go right out the window but again as i said it does feel very rewarding once you successfully qt a fish. and i will add that the qt process is not cheap so really if money is your only driving factor as to where you are buying your fish, then the more expensive fully qt fish very well may be less expensive in the long run, but if you have the desire to see your fish through qt then do it yourself. i always ask my wife if she feels like saving any fish from petco when we drive by. "saving" not buying, though we have to buy them before we save them.

i only mentioned these two vendors as i have recently dealt with both but the same applies to many other vendors. recently i wanted a freckled face tang, found one wasnt qt. shes doing fine, also picked up a couple of purple tangs to boot. more likely than not both the vendors i mentioned also have good supply lines, which is something many people overlook. they are quick to blame the lfs, but many times the distribution lines are tainted. i mentioned that also not too far back i bought some fish that came with velvet, brooklynella and uronema. triple whammy, got a great deal on the fish but lost them every single one of them. do not blame myself at all sometimes the fish may have been too far gone to save even if they are looking ok at point of sale.

i spoke to ORA, they have a deal with liveaquaria. you buy ORA from liveaquaria and that fish is good to go. another example of good online fish.

some guys i know just buy the cheapest fish they can get in case it dies, they dont qt and usually its OK - they just need some nitrates in their system or they realize a tank full of corals and no fish does seem a bit strange LOL

big mistakes people make are buying fish online and having them shipped to their house. never do that. always have the package held at the local fedex or ups. pick it up yourself. thats the number 1 mistake. then people are complaining that the package is lost or late or delivered to the wrong place. that doesnt happen when you hold the package. 2nd mistake is not getting the qt up and biological filter ready in time. not having enough water in the house. not having the proper medications. these are my observations.

that vein in paul's head is probably about to explode after reading all this qt nonsense LOL. i have a theory. seed your aquarium with bacteria everyday for 5 years, fill it with biodiversity microfauna clams, pods, few corals, and i bet you wont have to qt. im going to try it, just bought a gallon of stability - the next post you see from me will be in 5 years. paul's tank will be 55 years old.

 

[MnFish1]

It's sad to me that any of this is controversial. The title of the above video is even sadder.

It's WAY harder to not panic when your fish is not doing well and stay the course than to freak out and dump medication in for the fish. The medication sure makes the aquarist feel better but can they see through their own fear to assess the real situation. Based on my own background and my observations of others the answer is resoundingly no.

I agree. The title of the video leaves something to be desired. I could also say 'testing alkalinity every day, Mg every week, etc' also makes the aquarist feel 'better'. Cycling a tank while constantly worrying about ammonia, nitrites, etc - the constant measuring - makes the aquarist 'feel better'. There are a lot of things in this hobby that people do - with perhaps little or no real rationale.

 

[HuduVudu]

I could also say 'testing alkalinity every day, Mg every week, etc' also makes the aquarist feel 'better'.

I think a better way to say this that would be more in context is that dosing alkalinity and trying to keep an exact number, makes a new aquarist feel knowledgeable aka better. They are know that you are "supposed" to dose for alk, but that leads to the next quote.

There are a lot of things in this hobby that people do - with perhaps little or no real rationale.

This is I think the crux of all of this.

People come into this hobby and they think that they can read their way to success. They aren't truly doing this hobby for themselves, they are doing it to impress other people. See look how amazing I am, I did this amazingly complicated thing in two weeks only using one hundred dollars. This is the driving motivation of many many people in this hobby. This isn't the only place that you can see this behavior, obviously.

People that have had long term success in their hobby would like to give back. The problem is that no one wants what they have ... success. What they want is envy and jealousy of them and their method, and of course they have to have a "new" method so that it can all be attributed to them and their genius. People that have real success tire of helping the people like this and we all know their numbers are vast.

I thought I could help at first. I have been on boards before and I was usually the big fish in the little pond. I thought there was a place where it could be true that I could help. The answer is I can't and now I have come to the realization that I just want to talk to other people that share my interest in this hobby. Many long term successful reefers have unique ideas. For me I would like to hear them to add them to my toolkit.

As to QT, I have seen the sterile method over 35 years. Because that is really what we are talking about. The names change but the method is always the same. I found out a long time ago that this method is incredibly fragile. Can it work, yes, but it is not very robust and tends to fall over rather quickly. QT is part of this thinking. Also I am with @Paul B in that I don't see many of these systems long term. The reason IMO is what I have stated, fragility. But hey, everyone has different desires and goals. Mine was never to have a tank up for a couple years. I like things to be around and I set up my life like that. Is it right ... for me yes, but maybe not so much for someone else. Ripping people apart because they don't follow orthodoxy is really foolish IMO. I think it is better to see what the result of someone's solution is instead. I can't praise build threads enough in this regard.

FWIW.

 

[MnFish1]

I think a better way to say this that would be more in context is that dosing alkalinity and trying to keep an exact number, makes a new aquarist feel knowledgeable aka better. They are know that you are "supposed" to dose for alk, but that leads to the next quote.


This is I think the crux of all of this.

People come into this hobby and they think that they can read their way to success. They aren't truly doing this hobby for themselves, they are doing it to impress other people. See look how amazing I am, I did this amazingly complicated thing in two weeks only using one hundred dollars. This is the driving motivation of many many people in this hobby. This isn't the only place that you can see this behavior, obviously.

People that have had long term success in their hobby would like to give back. The problem is that no one wants what they have ... success. What they want is envy and jealousy of them and their method, and of course they have to have a "new" method so that it can all be attributed to them and their genius. People that have real success tire of helping the people like this and we all know their numbers are vast.

I thought I could help at first. I have been on boards before and I was usually the big fish in the little pond. I thought there was a place where it could be true that I could help. The answer is I can't and now I have come to the realization that I just want to talk to other people that share my interest in this hobby. Many long term successful reefers have unique ideas. For me I would like to hear them to add them to my toolkit.

As to QT, I have seen the sterile method over 35 years. Because that is really what we are talking about. The names change but the method is always the same. I found out a long time ago that this method is incredibly fragile. Can it work, yes, but it is not very robust and tends to fall over rather quickly. QT is part of this thinking. Also I am with @Paul B in that I don't see many of these systems long term. The reason IMO is what I have stated, fragility. But hey, everyone has different desires and goals. Mine was never to have a tank up for a couple years. I like things to be around and I set up my life like that. Is it right ... for me yes, but maybe not so much for someone else. Ripping people apart because they don't follow orthodoxy is really foolish IMO. I think it is better to see what the result of someone's solution is instead. I can't praise build threads enough in this regard.

FWIW.

Not sure 'why you cant help' and not sure 'who is ripping anyone apart'. Aside from those comments - what you're saying makes sense. I assume since you addressed my quotes you were referring to me. I agree with you I dont see many Qt systems that have lasted 40+ years. Likewise, I havent seen many nonQT systems that have lasted 40 years. My simple point was - (to my feeble brain) - that somewhat negates the comments of the OP - that one was is better - or worse than the other. By the way - this is also 'discussing the hobby' - and it is a 'discussion board'

 

[Paul B]

that vein in paul's head is probably about to explode after reading all this qt nonsense LOL.

OOOOOOohhhhNNNNnooo. My head is exploding.......

in that I don't see many of these systems long term. The reason IMO is what I have stated, fragility.

This is true, quarantined systems are very fragile. Not only do we not see 40 year old systems, I don't know of any. I hope someone on here out of the thousands of hobbiests has a somewhat old system that was quarantined and nothing has ever been sick. It is hard to tell if all the fish die of old age as "most" but not all of our fish live at least 10 or 12 years in a tank.

You can't call any tank a success if the fish are not at least dying of old age.
It is much more difficult to keep a clownfish until it does of old age because they can live 40 years and many people on here are not even that old. .

I don't remember when I started my tank if I thought it would last so long and in the beginning with all the deaths, medications and problems I am surprised I kept going.

I don't know how many people keep this going from what I read on the disease forum. So many problems and you know as I keep saying, we are making the fish sick. They were quite fine in the sea.

I am also not sure what the difference of an expensive fish is from a cheap fish.
Here I have two LFSs about 15 miles from me on the same road. They both have nice fish and a good selection. One is a very nice looking place and very large. They have a huge goldfish pond inside with a duck in it. A big duck.

His fish are nice but very expensive. I went there yesterday for LRS food but I didn't buy a fish. He did have something I liked. A small wrasse looking thing with a flourescent looking blue stripe on it's side which I haven't seen. He wanted $80.00 for it and I think it was a $40 or $50.00 fish. I had the 80 bucks in my pocket but didn't think that fish was worth it.

He also had sunburst anthius for $100.00.
(he does have Supermodels working there so that is a plus)

I started going to the other store which is totally filthy. It is probably 50 years old and the stands are wood. I won't go with in 20 yards of the "bathroom" and I don't think the hermit crabs would either.
There is junk laying all over the floor and many of the lights don't work. There are no prices on the tanks and the owner makes them up as he goes. I couldn't get there yesterday because I had my wife with me and she has some issues with health.

But that filthy store has prices about half the cost of the other place. I got a sunburst anthius from him a few years ago for about $30.00 and a copperband for $25.00. (he lived ten years and I still have that sunburst anthius.

Some tanks in both stores the fish had some flukes. I don't care. I didn't see ich or velvet but you shouldn't see that in a store because they fish are in meds which is fine in a store where the fish are in very un natural surroundings.

My point is that if you only want sterile, quarantined fish, get them from someone who does that or an online place that does that. Of course you don't really know.
But we know those fish will be very expensive and the shipping will probably be more than the fish.
I doubt they are any healthier than cheap fish which come from the same place and probably the same guy in the canoe collected them both.

I only bought one fish online. At the beginning of Covid I ordered a copperband. With shipping it was $100.00. Not bad but of course I could have gotten it for $25.00 but the stores were closed.

I still have that copperband and she is fine and a good buy.
I personally don't care if it is a cheap or expensive fish. I can buy it. If it is a fish I haven't seen before, I will buy it. Fish for me are always cheap because they live for many years.
My fireclown is about 30 years old and was probably $15.00, so the fish cost me 50 cents a year.

I realize the owner has to make a profit and it costs more to hire Supermodels.

Sunburst anthius.

 

[MnFish1]

This is true, quarantined systems are very fragile. Not only do we not see 40 year old systems, I don't know of any. I hope someone on here out of the thousands of hobbiests has a somewhat old system that was quarantined and nothing has ever been sick. It is hard to tell if all the fish die of old age as "most" but not all of our fish live at least 10 or 12 years in a tank.

Do you think its possible that the reason there are so many questions on the disease forum is because people have NOT been quarantining (or following stress-reducing techniques)? Most of the posts I read are 'help my fish have xxxxxx' what should I do. This is usually followed by a question from someone 'did you QT?' - answer 'No'.

Do you know (out of the millions of reef/marine aquariums) - that there are a significant number of tanks that are 40++ years old? If not - I still don't get the relevance of the statement that there aren't any 40+ year old QT tanks? Maybe its just me.

 

[Paul B]

It is of course not a scientific study which as you know, for this hobby, I don't have a lot of faith in. I think hobbiests experiences are more valuable.
I only know of 3 very old tanks and none of them were quarantined or medicated. They use slightly different methods but all focus on healthy foods, no medication or quarantine.

That is only 3, but I know of only one fairly old quarantined system, Humblefish but he medicates at the slightest sign of almost anything and I don't know how old his tank is or if anything dies of old age.

There were millions of tanks started since 1971 and it would be nice to see if there are any long term, healthy tanks. I have been asking for this on this and all the other forums since they invented computers and so far I have not found one, old quarantined healthy tank.

I personally don't think a quarantined tank could be healthy because that type of tank needs to be "quarantined" from all pathogens forever. That means no fresh or live food.
Fish were designed to eat nothing but fresh or live food so right away we have to eliminate that.

Does it sound natural to anyone that the food the fish was living on since birth and the food the fish was designed to eat can no longer be fed?

Female fish are also always pregnant and it is impossible to find a female fish in the sea which is not pregnant. How many fish in quarantined tanks lay eggs? I don't know but I would like to.

Does anyone here with a fully quarantined tank where no live or fresh food is fed have spawning fish besides clownfish which can live on slice bread so they don't count. Do they spawn constantly like all fish do?

All of my paired fish spawn constantly and I would worry if they didn't because that is a normal, natural part of a fishes physiology.

Maybe quarantined fish are healthier, but I would need to see some to believe it.

I have a very good friend with cancer so he is irriadated and has chemo all the time. He is living but he doesn't say he is and just wants to die because he lives in constant pain and is always sick from the medication. He always has to wear a mask, (before Covid) can't go to a restaurant, shake hands, hug his Grand Children or get close to anyone and he will have to live like this for the rest of his life.

I don't consider him healthy at all but he has no diseases right now because of medications that make him sick.

I don't want that and my fish don't either.

 

[WVNed]

I think you have to learn how to keep an aquarium. Once you do 95% of the problems you see on R2R go away.
I started with guppies in about 1967.
Is there a mortality rate for fish? Of course there is, but there is also one for puppies and kittens. You can take puppies and kittens to the vet. With fish you are the vet.
I have animals in my tank that came straight from the sea, Petco, the internet and the LFS. It doesn't seem to make a difference where they came from to me.