The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

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Paul B

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Dragonsreef is correct. If you want to quarantine, do it in such a way as the fish are not stressed as that will cause any pathogens to take over your fish as fish for some reason lose or slightly lose their immunity when stressed.

I of course know about the ocean scenario that there is much more water in the sea then a tank and I understand it. It is the reason fish in the sea don't die from ich or velvet.

I can't tell from here if fish can definitely become immune to velvet. I am an electrician and not a fish.
Velvet is just another parasite, more virulent maybe, but a parasite that a fishes immunity should be well able to protect against. No scientific study goes longer than my tank has been up so it is hard to study. But fish in the sea should have in the 50,000,000 years that they have been living with velvet become immune from it by now. I am guessing of course.

As I always say, I find it difficult that I can keep a tank going very healthy for 50 years and I have "never" introduced velvet. From what I see on the 5 or 6 forums I am on, the stuff is pretty prevalent.

I don't have a specific LFS and buy from anyplace where ever I am at. I probably frequent 6 or 7 of them and I also collect from the sea. In the past I have put local flounders, stripped bass, fluke, sea robins, eels and many types of crabs, sponges, amphipods, seaweed and everything else in the sea in my tank along with mud and NSW.

A few times year I collect amphipods along with the mud and everything else in there and dump it in my tank with no fanfare. I post about this all the time and have since they invented computers.
(But velvet may not live in New York, I don't know)

I guess it is possible that in all that time and from all those sources I never once put in velvet. The odds are staggering but it is possible. Now that my tank is fifty and I consider it a success, If I find a fish with velvet maybe I will put it in my tank to see what happens.

That will end this discussion once and for all. Except of course people will tell me the fish really didn't have velvet, just a little indigestion. ;)
 

TheDragonsReef

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I can't tell from here if fish can definitely become immune to velvet. I am an electrician and not a fish.
Velvet is just another parasite, more virulent maybe, but a parasite that a fishes immunity should be well able to protect against. No scientific study goes longer than my tank has been up so it is hard to study. But fish in the sea should have in the 50,000,000 years that they have been living with velvet become immune from it by now. I am guessing of course.
I don't feel your approach is entirely wrong, I'm just trying to educate other who may be reading. There is still much we don't know. Adult fish may have stronger immune systems and have an easier time fighting off disease and parasites. But I do know, that if fish in the wild were immune to ich and velvet, the parasites would've died out thousands of years ago. So there's no way they can be entirely immune.

If you have a medic tank to move your fish into after possible infection it would be interesting to see how velvet would do in a system like yours.
 

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I think this is a great approach,
But I have a tank with healthy fish and I feed lrs
(But a couple of those fish wouldn’t be here without medication in a qt tank)
(Flukes)

I would like to try this method, bit I don’t want to chance killing off all of my fish
 
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Dragonsreef, of course you are correct and my system is probably not perfect and I have no way of knowing. I have been going through this for decades as I have been using my system since the 80s.

At that time people would tell me the same thing and they carried more weight then because my tank was only immune for 5 or 6 years so it certainly could have been luck.

Then in the 90s I had the same discussions and it still could have been luck because my tank was only immune for 15 or so years. Many people were making fun at me then because they all figured my tank would soon crash. I have not heard from any of those people in years and I assume they are all out of the hobby. :rolleyes:

Then at about 2010, many people on forums would tell me the same thing. The luck scenario was now waning because my fish were immune for 30 years.
Do you see where I am going with this?

Now I am not likely to keep my tank for another 50 years but if I did and it was still immune, would that mean that fish can become immune to that pathogen or will it have to run longer?

What is the magic number of years a tank has to run to be considered immune?

The Corona Virus vaccine has only been out for a few months and already they know that it is 93% effective. How do they know that? Those are scientists and researchers coming up with that "exact" number.

In light of this, I am going to say that due to it's age and the fact that not one fish has contracted or died from "any" communicable disease, my fish are immune. Hopefully more immune than I am from Covid after my two shots. :cool:

Of course there could be some other scenario in my tank that is keeping it immune that I don't know about. I know a few tanks crashed by not quarantining but as you know, it is not just foregoing quarantine or meds that make this happen although using those will nullify my system causing it to crash.

I don't want to re hash it but if a tank crashes with "my" system, I will assume my exact method was not used. Was live worms fed a few times a week or fresh clams? Was any dry food fed? Did the tank have numerous, natural hiding places where you can't see the fish? Is there a natural growth on the rocks?

These are some of the things that I feel are necessary and if they were not done, it is not my method as every one of those things would cause it to fail.

I didn't mention parameters because I don't think they are that important for fish immunity. Other things, but not immunity.

I have linked many studies on how pathogens in fish allow the fish to become immune from all of them, but I didn't mention velvet specifically because I don't know if that one organism was studied. I just don't know.

PS most of my fish were babies when I got them and I normally post pictures of them and their entire life span until they die of old age many years later.
 
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(But a couple of those fish wouldn’t be here without medication in a qt tank)
(Flukes)

I would like to try this method, bit I don’t want to chance killing off all of my fish
It would be difficult to take quarantined fish and put them in a natural tank. Those fish have little or no immunity and my system would not fare well for them
 

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It would be difficult to take quarantined fish and put them in a natural tank. Those fish have little or no immunity and my system would not fare well for them
So if I were to do this, I would get all fish from the store, and just plop em in the tank, feed clams and frozen foods, and add natural seawater along with sand from the beach?

also, could I build up immunity for the fish in my established tank by feeding clam? That would be along with the nori and lrs I already feed
 

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Paul, I guess your just lucky! You should play the lottery. I've caught hundreds of fish off the California coast over the last 45 + years and I see parasites on the fish. Definitely worms in the flesh and sea lice and other things I can't name. These fish were otherwise fat and healthy living with whatever was on them. So, these parasites continue to be around but the fish live with them and are otherwise pretty healthy.
 
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So if I were to do this, I would get all fish from the store, and just plop em in the tank, feed clams and frozen foods, and add natural seawater along with sand from the beach?

also, could I build up immunity for the fish in my established tank by feeding clam? That would be along with the nori and lrs I already feed
No, that is not quite it but part of it. You do not need natural seawater although it would help. For about 40 years my tank ran on fake water although I did always add mud. I don't know if that does anything for immunity.
I also did not mention nori as that is a dried Japanese seaweed and will also do nothing for immunity but it is not a bad food other wise. Most fish in the sea don't eat nori unless they are from Japan. :cool:

In the sea they eat living seaweed along with the bacteria on it.

You need a mature tank. Not something you just started and has white, new, dry rocks that were laying on the floor of a LFS since 2015. They need some growth on them for a healthy tank. Live rock is best.

It is also not just clams. It's fresh clams that you can freeze, not commercially frozen fish food clams. The worms also have to be live. The system is easy but requires a few things that fish in the sea have. If you don't want to, or can't do these few things, then quarantining and medication is the best bet.

I wrote volumes on this over decades and wrote a book so I don't want to do it all over here on this post as I get this question almost every day on many forums. :rolleyes:
 

40g Nano

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No, that is not quite it but part of it. You do not need natural seawater although it would help. For about 40 years my tank ran on fake water although I did always add mud. I don't know if that does anything for immunity.
I also did not mention nori as that is a dried Japanese seaweed and will also do nothing for immunity but it is not a bad food other wise. Most fish in the sea don't eat nori unless they are from Japan. :cool:

In the sea they eat living seaweed along with the bacteria on it.

You need a mature tank. Not something you just started and has white, new, dry rocks that were laying on the floor of a LFS since 2015. They need some growth on them for a healthy tank. Live rock is best.

It is also not just clams. It's fresh clams that you can freeze, not commercially frozen fish food clams. The worms also have to be live. The system is easy but requires a few things that fish in the sea have. If you don't want to, or can't do these few things, then quarantining and medication is the best bet.

I wrote volumes on this over decades and wrote a book so I don't want to do it all over here on this post as I get this question almost every day on many forums. :rolleyes:
Thanks a lot!
 
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. I've caught hundreds of fish off the California coast over the last 45 + years and I see parasites on the fish. Definitely worms in the flesh and sea lice and other things I can't name. These fish were otherwise fat and healthy living with whatever was on them. So, these parasites continue to be around but the fish live with them and are otherwise pretty healthy.
Many fish in the sea have those. My family all the way back to the Roman Empire was in the fish business.
Those large parasites, lice and worms are not communicable diseases and only affect that fish, not all of them, even if in a tank. The fishes immune system will probably even eliminate those, but not right away as the fish may die first.

We Humans are full of parasites on our skin and in our guts. It's part of life.
 

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Hi Paul, glad to see you are still here, and I can't believe this post is now 134 pages long, and my system is still running strong for the last 25 or so years on this current system, without quarantining 1 fish since it was first set up. My system was setup using live sand collected from the Outer Reefs off South Florida, the highest quality live rock I could purchase, and NSW was used from day one, usually collected in the Gulfstream, never near shore or inlets. I feed Mysis, Rod's Reef, and LRC frozen food, and I know you used to use Black Worms for your fish, and after reading a page or two back I see you are now using White Worms, any particular reason for the switch? Keep up the good fight, as I'm totally in agreement with you on not quarantining, as I have never had problems with my current system or any system I have owned from fish diseases.
 

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Many people were making fun at me then because they all figured my tank would soon crash. I have not heard from any of those people in years and I assume they are all out of the hobby. :rolleyes:
The other casualty of QT. It seems like so many that scream at the top of their lungs about QT and it's benefits leave the hobby. This is my experience too and I have not been in as long as Paul. I guess they got bored because QT was sooooo successful.

It's a fish tank. No one is a genius who owns one ... successful or not.
 
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Hello Jay. Have we discussed anything all those years ago? The only reason I don't use blackworms any more is because 3 years ago I moved to eastern Long Island and the closest live blackworms I could find are 60 miles away. Besides that I built a keeper that could keep those worms alive, but they wouldn't really reproduce in the amounts I needed.

Then I found whiteworms which live in soil. They were about $15.00 for a culture and I have been using that same culture for many years.

I also like the fact that they are in soil because I like the bacteria in the dirt and the best thing is they live in salt water for about 5 days. I actually tested that by putting some in a container of seawater.

They are great for all fish but mandarin type fish especially. I "shoot" them behind the rocks and those types of fish can hunt for them all week. The worms don't burrow into the substrait so the fish easily find them. Then just keep wriggling for days and almost all fish, except pipefish love them.

I have to be careful with my Copperband and long nosed butterflies because they like worms so much that they will forego food for a couple of days after the worms and give me dirty looks.

I really don't have enough worms to feed every day and I don't want to.

My worms seem to have evolved since I first got them. They used to be very skinny like this and they loved crackers or in this case Matzo's (maybe they are Jewish worms?)



Now they are much larger and don't eat crackers and prefer yogurt on bread. Their tastes have changed, I don't know why but I assume they got more cultured. :rolleyes:
You can also see they are not as bent as the original culture and tend to be in larger curves instead of almost right angels.



I think the live worms are a big key to this and if more people fed them, there would hardly be a need for a disease forum. I doubt you should feed them to quarantined fish because of what they may be carrying, but I am guessing.

People say they use my system but they forget the worms. Worms are cheaper than a test kit and practically free to feed. You just need a shoe box to keep them. Mine right now are in my garage and it is 36 degrees. In the summer they are in my workshop where it is normally about 74 or so.

I think a refrigerator may be a little to cold unless you have one you don't use for left over chicken catchatori or flank steaks and you can raise the temperature maybe 5 or 10 degrees above freezing.
 

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If you want to keep the worms at the right temp then go on craigslist and buy a wine refrigerator from a person that bought it as an impulse buy. :p

The worms are the best advice I have stolen from Paul so far.

Paul if you need worms I have waaaaayyyy too many of them. I will give you a full colony. It seems my worms are randy and there are so many my fish can't keep up and they eat them every day twice a day. They are but two smallish butterflys.
 
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Hudu, thank you. I also have quite a bit of worms and yesterday I gave them a bath. After a while they stink so I flood their box repeatedly and put them under a faucet for an hour or so until the water runs off clean.

Then I add more soil. I think they enjoy it because if you look at them very close, you can barely make out a smile, although it could be a smirk. ;Meh

As I said they evolved but probably what happened, there may have been a few different type of worms in my original culture and in time, they out produced the original worms as these are much larger and very different looking. I don't care as a worm is a worm and these seem better.

Whatever they are, their tastes have changed and I am having to find different foods for them as they are getting tired of bread and yogurt.
I hope they don't acquire a taste for Lobster or butterfly shrimp. :rolleyes:
 

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If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish.

That's not how immune systems work. You don't all of a sudden lose your immune system just because you have been in a sterile area. Quarantining is not going to destroy the immune system of anything.

--Gray
 
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Gray, you are correct, nothing will lose immunity all of a sudden. Being in a sterile area also won't make a fish lose immunity and quarantining won't destroy an immune system. No one said it will.

Quarantining a fish for a "long" time or keeping a fish, or any animal in a sterile place for an "extended" time frame like it would be in a quarantined system will. That time frame varies for different species.

I know you just came to this thread but this discussion has been going on for decades and many current scientific studies were posted to prove it. If fish or we are not exposed to pathogens we will lose our immunity to it which is the reason we get flu shots and booster shots.

I don't want to re hash all of this but maybe someone else does. I am old. :rolleyes:
 

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Hello Jay. Have we discussed anything all those years ago? The only reason I don't use blackworms any more is because 3 years ago I moved to eastern Long Island and the closest live blackworms I could find are 60 miles away. Besides that I built a keeper that could keep those worms alive, but they wouldn't really reproduce in the amounts I needed.

Then I found whiteworms which live in soil. They were about $15.00 for a culture and I have been using that same culture for many years.

I also like the fact that they are in soil because I like the bacteria in the dirt and the best thing is they live in salt water for about 5 days. I actually tested that by putting some in a container of seawater.

They are great for all fish but mandarin type fish especially. I "shoot" them behind the rocks and those types of fish can hunt for them all week. The worms don't burrow into the substrait so the fish easily find them. Then just keep wriggling for days and almost all fish, except pipefish love them.

I have to be careful with my Copperband and long nosed butterflies because they like worms so much that they will forego food for a couple of days after the worms and give me dirty looks.

I really don't have enough worms to feed every day and I don't want to.

My worms seem to have evolved since I first got them. They used to be very skinny like this and they loved crackers or in this case Matzo's (maybe they are Jewish worms?)



Now they are much larger and don't eat crackers and prefer yogurt on bread. Their tastes have changed, I don't know why but I assume they got more cultured. :rolleyes:
You can also see they are not as bent as the original culture and tend to be in larger curves instead of almost right angels.



I think the live worms are a big key to this and if more people fed them, there would hardly be a need for a disease forum. I doubt you should feed them to quarantined fish because of what they may be carrying, but I am guessing.

People say they use my system but they forget the worms. Worms are cheaper than a test kit and practically free to feed. You just need a shoe box to keep them. Mine right now are in my garage and it is 36 degrees. In the summer they are in my workshop where it is normally about 74 or so.

I think a refrigerator may be a little to cold unless you have one you don't use for left over chicken catchatori or flank steaks and you can raise the temperature maybe 5 or 10 degrees above freezing.
Thanks Paul for all the info, and yes we talked about this same problem with quarantining fish when this post first started on here and Reef Central. Over the years we also spoke about other subjects on these Reef Forums, and since I live in South Florida, I have not personally met you, but I did know Robert Straughn as a kid. He helped me with my first salt water tanks.
 
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Oh yes Jay. I remember you and I remember you knew my "remote" mentor Robert Straughn.

Nice to "see" you again. :)
 
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