The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[ca1ore]

The QT debate has always struck me as an ‘argument’ between the two extreme ends of the continuum. One end is the ‘I never QT anything, and never lose a fish’; the other is to QT everything and blast with a cocktail of medications. There is, however, a mid ground. I suppose, ultimately, that which works for each of us becomes our personal dogma. Thus my approach has, for over a decade now, been to QT all fish but only treat if or when disease symptoms appear .... and I am indeed dogmatic about it LOL. More often than not, a period of observation is sufficient, but when treatment is necessary I do employ a separate hospital tank.

My primary QT is a permanently setup 29 with live rock, sand, skimmer, sump and reef-quality lighting. It is biologically active. There’s a Royal pencil wrasse in there at the moment that I am attempting to get to stay out of the sand for more than just a few hours a day. Excuse the awful photo. I do have other QT tanks, but they now serve only as hospital tanks should the need arise.

 

[Mortie31]

Thankyou, The last fish I added was a gold flake angel that I bought private and had been in his tank for a year, and looked perfect, I had majestic, regal, coral beauty, and flame angels, 4 spot and pearl scale butterfly, sargassum trigger, purple, yellow and Naso tangs, 5 anthias, 3 yellow tail damsels, pair maroon clowns (female survived)cleaner wrasse (survived) in an 6.5 yr old 800L predominantly SPS tank, with most of the live rock coming from my previous tanks. As a side note I keep Japanese Koi and due to disease transmission there is virtually no market for private sales, most serious collectors think the risk is to high to put there collections at risk. Why didn’t I listen to myself....

In addition to this I’ve never quarantined my coral or inverts, I have dozens of crabs, loads of starfish, snails, shrimps etc, I’ve dont own a UV or ozone. I’ve never had AEFW, red bugs, black bugs, planaria or MENs, am I the luckiest bugger on the planet or does having loads of cuc etc help towards this. I’ve also steered clear on the known ich fish ie PB tangs...

 

[Paul B]

To tell the truth, I didn't expect so much interest in such a short time.

Well said Paul. You are a pioneer

Actually, me and Martin Moe started at the same time. All the others are Noobs.

So you are saying that by simply ING giving the fish proper nutrition, QT isn't needed?

Do you have tangs?

No, I didn't say that. I said you need a tank with a thriving population of parasites in it for it to be immune. Tangs and all. In the 47 years this tank has been set up there were numerous tangs. They have more issues because they are always stressed. Tangs are schooling fish and want to and need to live in a school. They have no mind of their own and evolved to follow the crowd. I do not like tangs as they are the most common fish on a reef and I find them boreing. But for most of my fish life I have had hippo tangs. After a few years they usually get HLLE which is not a disease but a symptom of captivity. I think I know why but that is for another discussion.


I now have a 10 year old copperband which is also supposed to be suseptable to ich and many other things.
I have many gobies, queen anthius, pipefish, clown gobies etc and they are all suseptable but they die of old age like all my fish.


This is the way a fishes life should be all the time.
I got this baby Watchman Gobi a long time ago


Then I got another one and they became youngsters together.


They raised many eggs.


Then they became old, fat married fish that never left each others side.


Then, at the end of their life, about 10 or 12 years later I put them in a nursing home to die in peace without crabs eating them alive. This is the only successful way a fish should live in a tank. Anything else is a failure.

I remember you mentioning undergravel filters in the past as well? I thought perhaps there was something to that the more I thought of it!

I didn't mention my reverse undergravel filter because I don't think it has anything to do with disease resistance, just overall tank health.

Remember also . It is not just fresh or frozen food, it is whole food. Scallops, octopus, shrimp and squid are not whole foods and not the best food. With those foods you are only feeding the muscles and not the guts. We eat that but the nutrition is in the guts as is the bacteria and important oil.
Fish oil is a very overlooked part of food and only whole foods will have it.

A few weeks ago I added this tiny 1/2" clown gobi and he was so covered in parasites I could barely tell what kind of fish it was. I didn't have much hope for him. But without me doing anything he is happy and healthy

 

[erk]

I've inadvertently followed the same practice as Paul. I never QT and a lot of my fish come from Petco. They even come with spots. I try to avoid the fish if they don't look healthy, aka swimming and inquisitive. Once they are in my tank, I feed them. I feed a lot. Lots of frozen and dry. Within a couple days the spots disappear. I'm sure it is most likely Ich and not the more aggressive infections, but I am not 100% sure.

Honestly, I find that QT results in undue stress on the fish. That is why I avoid it. I will on occasion isolate a new fish, like wrasses, before introducing them. The aggression from the other wrasses can be too great. I find that the stress of aggression will reduce the slime coat on the established fish in the tank as well as the new addition.

Stress is the number one reason I've had fish die. And the number one reason for stress is food related. Removing the stress of food, i.e. providing copious amounts of it, and the aggression and stress recedes. Then no fish feel like their food supply is being threatened. But this method requires feeding a lot. I feed nori, multiple hikari pellet feedings, and about a silver dollar size worth of LRS fish frenzy every day along with two doses of Reef Roids. I have algae growing in the tank, but that is free food for the Coral Beauty and Yellow Tang. I have aiptasia, but that is what peppermint shrimp are for. I have tons of pods, sponges, tube worms, tunicates, random clams, hydroids, etc. I started with all dry rock from BRS and yet I have an enormous amount of diversity in my tank. I attribute this to feeding a lot and not trying to get rid of everything that is perceived as a pest. Maybe this will bite me one day, but when that day comes, I'll just deal with it.

 

[Paul B]

Here is a page from the 70s of my log book. I was keeping a Moorish Idol, Copperband and French Angel among others.

 

[Paul B]

I see I had a Naso tang here in 1976. I don't remember what happened to him but those were the days before I learned about immunity and I was doing what people do now. Chase diseases with medications which at the time were non existent.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

As I read through the various disease vectors in my fish disease book one thing stands out as a related factor in pathogen outbreaks. Diminished water quality in the holding system leading to explosions in the various pathogen levels that lead to fish mortality.

As one who has practiced the various methods to acclimate and prevent disease outbreaks before introduction to the main display I have struggled with prophylactic treatment of fish before the final display. If there is ever a difficult task it is to harmonize the stability of a QT tank that starts out sterile and attempts to provide proper biological filtration and the necessary chemical or antibiotic levels to treat the fish in QT. The constant seesaw of water parameters gives me the impression that I am in fact advancing the disease process through diminished water quality during the QT process. As a result I killed way more fish than by simply adding them to a stable holding system with mechanical, biological, skimming, and U.V. sterilization for feeding and stabilization before transfer to the various display tanks. I maintained tanks up to 1500 gallons plus for customers for several years that used similar systems to the holding systems with very good success.

I guess the question is how good are we at keeping a sterile system at therapeutic levels that does not degrade rapidly on the side of biological filtration? Perhaps something to consider that may increase our success rates with intervention or prophylactic therapy. Many of the chemical and antibiotic therapy methods kill the biological filtration process.

 

[theMeat]

Tank is looking good

Would like to hear thoughts on why LLE

 

[Big G]

One neat factor: Paul's method is working in my freshwater which is grossly overstocked with fish that had ich on them at time of addition from lfs

By using no plastic decor but mud base with 130 lbs of tank driftwood + plants sold out of a twenty year system, the ideal aged natural substrates Paul favors and uses in his immune approach (plus feeding), my fw system suppresses disease without medication

Ich dots leave any added fish, go into the system I guess but at year one it doesn't express. This tank is really well exported, it's high flow and high fish stocking that in lesser environmental conditions would require constant meds. There's approximately 30 fish in a 55, it's full.


I'm feeding the best possible foods, even live tisbe pods at times. Cut up market food, I'm able to literally replicate Paul's method in freshwater all day long if that helps

I know fw sw isn't a direct correlation between crypto/ ich but I do employ this method, wanted to state.

Getting a group of Petco or lfs shoppers to perform this task in marine, with all its inherent variables, really tough work am thinking. They have access to market quality feed however, a big portion of Paul’s success is feed quality. and they have via internet trading the ability to source reef-specific (real reef) substrates somehow, get a chunk of maricultured rock that looks like Medusa, it adds the oceanic diversity, micropods, that his system presents as the ideal suppressant to disease. The way I see it, if you hit those two variables hard you have a chance to replicate Paul’s system, leave one out and it’s imbalanced. Literal marine substrates, or even mud and in some case ocean water or maricultured rock bring a competition aspect into tanks that we can’t replace without harsh meds and qt/fallow/xfer

Yes, exactly ^^^. I've had much the same results using a method somewhat like Paul's in my freshwater planted tanks for years, no decades (yikes I'm old) . Almost all of the fish die from old age, with little to no disease ever appearing in my tanks. When I first got into saltwater, I tried to use the same methods and it was a huge disaster. All the fish died. And they continued to die until a stumbled across Humblefish's methods. I like to keep an open mind, but watching all those beautiful fish die in my initial saltwater experiences was brutal. Almost left the hobby.

 

[sk8]

I agree I have had tanks since early 2000 and have never quarantined I feed primarily frozen food and as long as the fish eat they can kick most sickness I also usually stock my tank with cleaner shrimp that my fish and tangs regularly check in with for their daily scrub

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

Maybe the key is in the 47 year old bacteria. Maybe something got in there 47 years ago and has been thriving ever since keeping all the fish healthy. People trying to replicate this now might be lucky for 5 years and think it’s working, until one day it isn’t. I’m sure there are tons of stories about people who didn’t QT and followed similar procedures and did great “for a while”.

 

[brandon429]

*there is only one metric that will drive this thread, and it's collecting brand new tank threads that get to start, stock and finish here in one place

It's not about what the highly able and practiced can do, we expect y'all to limbo a straw as it rests on the ground.

To remove a practice as statistically reinforced as fallow/qt/TT, you are required to guide about fifty new tanks, right here.


The data for this thread should be getting sourced in the new tankers forum. You find some posts that are just the right post cycle ready, and have them link or just transfer the entire tank running here. I know more than 5 would sign up for the event, they get only post feedback on the method, they buy all supplies. They get the custom guided setup

There’s no other way to beat quarantine, they’ll have to be statistically beaten in order to be relegated behind feeding protocols as a control for the masses

And if we just get five or ten participants here, and 90% of those are attained and supported well past normal exposure periods for crypto, then I’ll take from that pattern plenty

Start, middle and outcome documented where people buy locally sourced fish, get the right feeds and environmental requirements, then be crypto free / common ailment free is how to make change. You need at minimal five to ten total builds right here to reveal reliability

 

[Kmsutows]

Maybe the key is in the 47 year old bacteria. Maybe something got in there 47 years ago and has been thriving ever since keeping all the fish healthy. People trying to replicate this now might be lucky for 5 years and think it’s working, until one day it isn’t. I’m sure there are tons of stories about people who didn’t QT and followed similar procedures and did great “for a while”.

Exactly. The "key", in my opinion and has been proven in industry to eliminate or reduce disease/parasites, is in his ozone and diatom filter usage. He states he has always used them but will never say why he insists on them. THAT is key. Of course good health is important but let's be honest of the whole package here.

 

[brandon429]

I can not recommend anything but Humblefish’s method to new friends I meet in chat. Human disappointment makes me feel like a bad reefer, so I avoid it by recommending things I think will prevent people messaging me saying their tank died, or got invaded, or they had a disease breakout.


That being said these threads are also great forums to try new concepts, we know what eating clean does to a human body...sustained, and the effects for an aquarium of using fast expiration date feeding might be profound.

Quarantine and transfer is a lot of steps, an intro into basic aseptic technique if someone wants to practice being serious at preserving the animals, and doesn’t have to be done stressfully and it’s the only safe thing I know if one hundred new nano reefs are to be setup by spring break.

People should look into what zoos do, mass $ on the line. Maybe inland zoos that don’t have access to natural sw replacement and are making it on site...closed systems (disease amplifiers) whatever those pros do to stock their multi $ displays regarding fish protocol would be a neat model for statistical compliance

Not sure, but isn’t it true team that some marine fish are bulletproof anyway, like today’s clowns? I thought someone told me a while back that clowns don’t get ich/crypto frequently and are ok to skip qt, but as vectors if you do this the other fish might catch ill from them, is that right

 

[TherealplexiG]

@Paul B
The only thing i missed were them super models. Hahahaha

 

[tehmadreefer]

I'm still new to all this but does like @HotRocks asks does this apply to all fishes? I keep seeing fish like Powder Blue Tangs listed as fish that can't survive in ich management systems.

Don’t believe everything you read by the so called “experts” on this site.

Lots of people have tangs especially powders in tanks with no qt including myself.

 

[vetteguy53081]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

This is how I roll. I do not quarantine ( I have enough tanks already) and I change water once a year (December) And I assure the specimens I buy are from well known source and fish are eating and a pain to catch with a net at store (another could sign of energy and diet). I have lost 6 fish this year ( 5 were perculas from a Very COLD Shipment ) but past warranty.

 

[vetteguy53081]

In my opinion, and I know we've argued at length about, you should point out all that encompasses your setup. I know you insist the ozone and diatom filtration doesnt do anything (even though you've always used them for 40yrs) but many others like myself would argue this is just as important as good nutrition for your fish and should be pointed out for those interested in replicating your setup.

Although I agree, one unique thing with this hobby is Concept. Everyone has a concept and method that works for them and each has their advantage and disadvantage. Sometimes there is no right way or wrong way but " The WAY it works for me"

 

[User1]

Some things for the casual reader to consider:

1) Is buying new fish today the same as it was 10-30 years ago? even a year ago? (Condition)
2) Does the kind of fish matter? (IE I don’t believe most acanthurus tangs, angels, and other commonly coveted fish will be as resistant to parasites as Paul’s selected fish).
3) Are these methods mutually exclusive to quarantine (other than the no-quarantining piece obviously).
4) Does it matter to the end user (or fish) if a fish is resistant (immunity is not attainable scientifically) or if it’s in a system devoid of these pathogens or nasties?
——other than in the case of a resistant group of fish, a stress event could give disease the upper hand and often does for most users thus making it a ticking time bomb of sorts

Thank you Paul, great writeup. If I understand the takeaways of your method, can they be summarized below?

1) Do not QT
2) Feed good foods, preferably fresh foods (IE avoid flakes or pellets)
3) Add more and varied bacteria in the form of mud or other ways
4) Natural seawater is best if possible

I also think users would love to see more photos, you have some very beautiful, disease-resistant fish.

I remember you mentioning undergravel filters in the past as well? I thought perhaps there was something to that the more I thought of it!

Also, I seem to remember your systems weren’t overstocked like I tend to keep mine, I personally think that’s an important factor as well.

I think users would benefit from a current stock list as well if you don’t mind, I certainly would!

I know we are on opposing sides of this debate (@HotRocks and I stocking two 180 gallon tanks, and a 500 gallon tank full of tangs and angels is a very different ball game) but I genuinely appreciate your contributions and hold a healthy amount of respect for you. It wasn’t long ago I was almost completely against quarantine (about four years).

Happy New Year to you and your family! God bless.

May want to add a 5th line item. Is a UV steralizer used.

6th line item may also be wise with regards to price of fish + price of existing fish (risk factor does go up when you are talking about a $1,000 purchase in an already heavily stocked tank housing other exotics.

I personally don't QT but I do run most fish through a fresh water bath using Methylene Blue which Mr. Fenner wrote about years ago. I found it works well and if the fish survives that then I'm 99% home free. I also agree and see the value in adding food(s) with pathogens/cultures similar to what we, humans, eat. Although I'm not sure how much of that is present with frozen food - I'm not a nutritionalist let alone a medical person so will defer to others.

 

[Paul B]

Maybe the key is in the 47 year old bacteria. Maybe something got in there 47 years ago and has been thriving ever since keeping all the fish healthy.

Maybe, but those bacteria were not always 47 years old.

Exactly. The "key", in my opinion and has been proven in industry to eliminate or reduce disease/parasites, is in his ozone and diatom filter usage. He states he has always used them but will never say why he insists on them. THAT is key. Of course good health is important but let's be honest of the whole package here.

I do use a diatom filter once or twice a year mainly to stir up my reverse UG filter. I also use it to blow detritus out of rock to clear the pores. I have always had one and find them useful but if diatom filters are the key to a healthy tank, why doesn't everyone use one?

I also use Ozone as I think it is good for water conditions. Mine broke before I moved here 5 months ago so I have not used one in a while, but I will as soon as I have time. Again, if we think Ozone is the key, use Ozone.