The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

ddrueckh

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All these diseases and such are in the ocean. If there wasn’t a natural way for fish to be resistant, all fish would be dead by now. If a fish is not stressed and has good water conditions, they will be fine. I feel it is less stressful to put them directly into a display with lots of rock (natural environment) than a bare QT tank with meds. If a fish has obvious signs of an illness, I am all for treating it first. If no signs of illness then in the display it goes. I also prefer live rock and as much diversity as I can get. I don’t like how our hobby has become so sterile!
 

Mortie31

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Seems this conversation has just become about ICK, I know it’s common, but there are dozens of other illnesses and parasites out there that affect our fish... just a thought, maybe a more natural diet and a more normal environment (whatever we deem that to be at this point in time!!) is just as important to the long term health of our fish, a healthy fish is more likely to fight illness off, there are just to many unknowns here for anyone to be certain as to what’s causing what...
 

Mortie31

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This is a very sweeping generalisation... having been a member on all the main forums for years, and read many thousands of threads but for me for some reason the US seems to suffer more disease and pest issues than other countries... not only fish disease even AEFW, red bugs MENs etc
Is it simply a numbers game, more reefers, more chance? It could be, are US reefers more open and honest? I don’t know, could it be a wholesaler and distribution issue? I also tend to see far less CUC in US tanks..I also see far more minimalistic and bare bottom tanks could this be stressful to inhabitants? I know this is completely unscientific, and just my observations.. be interested in your thoughts on this...
 

Ron Reefman

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Paul, thanks for starting this thread. I've been in the hobby 15 years and I do a fair amount of wild collecting, both while snorkeling in the Florida Keys and even just while taking a beach walk along the Gulf of Mexico (I live in SW Florida). Over the years I have gone from doing fairly serious quarantine of everything collected wild and most things I bought. But over the years I've found that I never seem to bring in anything 'harmful' from the wild! In fact, I have a yellow sea cucumber I collected in the Keys 4 years ago. It was only 3" long then, and it's 8" long now and is a very good citizen in my tank. Over the years I've had flatworms and aiptasia infestations, but those both came from adding corals from friends tanks.

So I went from quarantine and dipping, to just quarantine, to just a holding tank for a 24 to 72 hour watch and see that whatever it is, it's OK. The holding tank often gets wild collected critters that I'm not sure would be safe in my reef (I have lots of anemones and carnivores) or would be unsafe for things in my reef because they may not survive and cause an ammonia spike or are to hostile for a reef.

Currently I have a couple of mollusks in the holding tank, a Dosinia and a very young Giant Cockle. I'm unsure that either can survive long term in a reef tank. They have however, stayed alive for over 2 months now.
 

chicago

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Paul. Thank you for the write up. Can you tell us what tangs you keep in your system. Like you my days go back to buckets undergravel and bleaching. My tanks have always done better without the ick magnet blue tangs. My tanks always did better when I did not do water changes and stir up the gravel.
 

najer

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Great read as always Paul, hat's off sir, no qt here but only been in the hobby for around ten years, if a fish looks healthy, active and is feeding it goes in, the upgrade is only just over 3 years old, I have never had a fish disease. ;)

My pretty fish a few days ago! ;)

DSC_0005 by sshipuk, on Flickr
 
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Paul B

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. You and everyone else including Paul seem to be avoiding his true proven method of filtration that he also uses but disregards or some reason. UV and Ozone are PROVEN methods to kill parasites and have been used for decades

As I said, my Ozone has not been on in over 5 months, in that time I added about 8 fish which I documented in my thread. One recent one was a tiny yellow clown gobi covered in parasites.

But at any rate... I dont recall Paul saying he has introduced an infected fish while both the diatom and ozone were offline. Again, not that that would prove anything.

My Diatom filter is almost never on line. It's like people that use filter socks, it is just a mechanical thing but I only use it maybe 4 or 5 hours a year to stir up my gravel. I could use any power filter for that. If you don't use a reverse undergravel filter, you would never need one. I also sometimes use it when I collect natural sea water. Not for parasites, but because the pump that I throw into the sea sucks in sand and chopped up seaweed that would float all over the tank. While I collect water I also collect mud from the same place that I throw in my tank with no filtration. I add mud as often as I can which this year was only twice because I have been busy.

I am on a few forums and I always post fish I add. Besides that Clown Gobi I added three shrimpfish (Video) One was covered in parasites and he died in a day. I left him in there for the crabs.
I also added recently 3 Queen Anthius, 2 dragon pipefish, one bluestripe pipefish and 4 or 5 gobies and dragonettes. This tank is larger than my old one so I needed more fish. None were quarantined and none died.


I dismantled my tank and moved everything 60 miles and installed it here with no losses even though the fish and corals were in un heated vats for 2 days.
Healthy fish eating the right food with associated bacteria and parasites will spawn, never get sick and die of old age.
You can site Ozone, UV (which I do not use) undergravel filters or mud but I can only report on what I think it is.
If your professor tells you otherwise, he probably never had an old immune fish tank.

It is the presence of parasites that keep the fish healthy and not the other way around. I have posted for years on here and never posted on a disease thread on any forum for anything other than Pop Eye or some other non communicable disease.
This thread is not to discredit quarantine. The Title says "The Other Way", Not "The Only Way" :cool:

Chicago, as I said I have no tangs now. I just don't find them interesting as I kept them for years. Now I go for interesting, mostly smaller, secretive, rarer fish such as clingfish, possum wrasses, pipefish and those fish I pictured which I don't even know what they are.
If you dive you will know that tangs are the most common fish on the reef.
I also have two Gecko Gobies that I almost never see and hardly know what they look like. I feel that everyone has tangs and angels and I used to also. I am just past that now and want different but if I find a small Naso, I will put it in just for a test. I had quite a few of them and still find them boring with no personality because they are schooling fish and follow the crowd which I don't have. :rolleyes:



 
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Paul B

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When I can, I collect five gallons of amphipods, worms, snails and anything else I find and throw it in my tank with no regard to anything although I do try to remove crabs. I have not been able to do this in over a year and I don't know if it has anything to do with immunity but I figured I would add it here. I do it mainly for biodiversity because of the small, odd fish I like to keep.



 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Don't let thread go twenty pages of things that happened in the past tense, and not a view of a new or present build. The only possible way to establish this alternate method is for someone to go solicit new builds to post here, before fish, and coach the process for us to see. All energy needs to be focused not in showing us old pro tanks, but how pros communicate those benefits to non pros
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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Yes agreed

But they have the specific work examples am asking for, to the tune of about a thou pages of proof of outcome...which sets the gradient of massive stats this claim has to press against.
Nine pros here accomplishing something in single example tanks they have control over, on their 20th+ year of reefing vs all the builds in the new keepers forum asking for input and guidance, the test beds are ready and waiting

Make two non qt builds from non pro occur here before page twenty

Separating this thread into controlled steps that accomplish an ends, and then having several participants linked for tracking is the right way to reinforce the claims for sure. I choose that over any form of peer review and formality one could muster. Bulk participation by new tankers is where it’s at
 
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Mortie31

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Yes agreed

But they have the specific work examples am asking for, to the tune of about a thou pages of proof of outcome...which sets the gradient of massive stats this claim has to press against.
Nine pros here accomplishing something in single example tanks they have control over, on their 20th+ year of reefing vs all the builds in the new keepers forum asking for input and guidance, the test beds are ready and waiting

Make two non qt builds from non pro occur here before page twenty
I see the main problem as fashion.. at the moment most tanks seem to be stamped out of the same mould, in the main people don’t want a tank like Paul’s, something I hope will change as we need far more variety, in looks and philosophy...
 

brandon429

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Agreed

Lots of these new builders are nano reefs, which makes attaining and buying and supplementing these rare environmental conditions really attainable to test this method

The masses want to see Paul or proponents look at a burgeoning new build and then start to lead/ coach the builder away from the current trends (all Marco dry rocks for example and tap rinsed sand) and into whatever combo lends disease resistance. Looking at what the pros do on a given example of a matured tank isn’t the same as watching the raw truth of a new build unfold, it’s so humbling to try and coach new builds into completion. So humbling it’s avoided at all costs on a host of fronts. New builders have the impetus to report noncompliance way more than compliance, we want this trend in anecdotal assessments
 

KrisReef

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We are about to add twenty pages of things that happened in the past tense, and not a single view of a new or present tense build. The only possible way to establish this alternate method is for someone to go solicit new builds to post here, before fish, and coach the process for us to see. All energy needs to be focused not in showing us old pro tanks, but how pros communicate those benefits to non pros

If this isn’t done by page twenty even once, then there isn’t a new method it’s only bits and pieces compiled from prior setups and the thread evolves nothing for our science. Pro tankers will be backpatting themselves for a job well done. When Lebron dunks I’m not impressed, it’s expected.
I like the passion and civility this thread has maintained.
Note on the “Scientific Method:” It requires careful observation(s) made repeatedly over time. Paul’s op could be catalogued as a hobbyist’s scientist note perhaps?

@Seawitch - Here is an idea for an R2R article or new tank thread?

Happy New Year to all my R2R participants. The hobby is improving.
 

4FordFamily

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All these diseases and such are in the ocean. If there wasn’t a natural way for fish to be resistant, all fish would be dead by now. If a fish is not stressed and has good water conditions, they will be fine. I feel it is less stressful to put them directly into a display with lots of rock (natural environment) than a bare QT tank with meds. If a fish has obvious signs of an illness, I am all for treating it first. If no signs of illness then in the display it goes. I also prefer live rock and as much diversity as I can get. I don’t like how our hobby has become so sterile!
It’s different being held in a bathroom with two people that are sick and being stuck in a state the size of Texas with two sick people coughing and sneezing.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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The method would be literally dangerous (for fish bought) for new reefers to read and try and replicate these outcomes with no clear coaching on file. An article would hurt the hobby via temptation unproven, which I hope to prod into being proven for marine cuz it works well in freshwater for sure.

If the article opens, closes and ends with skepticism while showing pictures of pro tanks who pulled it off but never had to account for it in another’s build thread, then I’d read it and not think the article was about to cause the purchase and death of 1500 fish all at once.

Coaching is not Instagram worthy food prep of clams and marine fare. It’s johnny five posting his new 40 gallon nano, all dry materials, first month after cycling completion and he’s asking about fish, then someone asks Johnny if he’d like to have his tank become part of scientific proof ran and consulted virtually by a published book author on reefing

Johnny says yes before we’re even done trying to sell him on participation, makes the link here and example #1 is under way

We get to watch all details, now that’s proof.

25838EB6-5675-47AA-B30F-7CB56ED385F2.jpeg

I’m still googling affect vs effect lol too late to adjust my graphic
 
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Mortie31

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It’s different being held in a bathroom with two people that are sick and being stuck in a state the size of Texas with two sick people coughing and sneezing.
Is that a fair analogy? Maybe for the middle of the atlantic... but not for the reefs of The Pacific islands they are teeming with fish
 
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Paul B

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This will be very tough as most of Noobs tanks have so many problems not related to immunity that it will be hard to distinguish what is what.
I hesitate to give advice to Noobs and never tell them to give up quarantining even though I disagree with it. But I am not a noob and when I was, there was no one else so I did it the hard way.
A new tank with dry rock and sand will be a big problem with any method, I think we can all agree on that. This hobby is not that hard, but starting a new tank from scratch is. Especially when the person starting it is not aware what spots or behavior is normal or not.

I walk through a friends LFS and point out fish and say, That fish won't live the night and that one will be dead in 3 days. He hates when I do that but after 60 years of looking these things in the eye, you get a sense of their health. :D

I feel a new tank should have a good portion of the tank taken from an existing tank that is already set up just like we start cultures of things like worms and pods. I feel it could take 2 or 3 years for bacteria to settle down and do what they are supposed to do, maybe longer.

But I also feel that the fish we buy (from the sea) are already immune and all we have to do is cultivate that immunity that is dormant in stressed, underfed fish. Not add more stress. We want to get that fish out of a dealers tank as soon as possible but we also don't want to put it into another sterile, semi bare tank.
That, to me is just like quarantine and PVC pipes don't make fish happy as all new water is also detrimental to any sea creature.
All our fish come from reefs with a good amount of growth on them and not from sterile quarries. They like to hunt in those patches of growth and it makes them feel safer. They know when you add something artificial and don't trust it. Put a sunken chest in or a clean shell and they will avoid it for days until it has a growth on it. Even the feeder I invented won't attract any mandarins until it sits in there for a week or so.

I took this somewhere in the Caribbean last year. See the growth.


This is Key Largo in Florida.


And a remote Island off Hawaii. Notice the growth, or mulm



We have to stop cleaning off every bit of algae and detritus. Fish and more important the microscope creatures that help keep our tank healthy depend on this stuff. Most reefs are not pristine looking except in the South Pacific where there are so many corals that there is no room for mulm but numerous hiding places like here in Bora Bora.



Noob tanks almost always are to clean looking and are cleaned to much. I think a rock with some growth or even hair algae should be present in any new tank.
It's not just immunity that keeps a tank healthy and it's also not parameters. It is the stuff that fish are used to seeing and living in. My house is very clean and an ant wouldn't dare walk in here, but I am not a fish. We need to stop thinking of our tanks as a thing of beauty and think of them as a natural setting for the creatures we are trying to make comfortable. Just my opinion of course. :rolleyes:
 

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