The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[MnFish1]

Thsnks you too, just be a little careful not to post what you don't mean. I am easily confused being an old codger and all [emoji3]

I know. I'll take that into account in future threads - btw - you have no clue how old I am - nor how long I've been reefing/building aquaria - but - my guess (and its only my guess) - is that its .50 years here. So the 'old codger' self deprecating humor gets old at some point lol

 

[Conor_K]

I know. I'll take that into account in future threads - btw - you have no clue how old I am - nor how long I've been reefing/building aquaria - but - my guess (and its only my guess) - is that its .50 years here. So the 'old codger' self deprecating humor gets old at some point lol

.50 years? I’ve been doing this longer than that. And I’ve only been at it for 7 months.

Want to be careful for those readers that take everything litterally and don’t look at things with a discerning eye and take from those with experience what might be useful...

People might think you’re a rookie...

 

[Scott Campbell]

Scott, thank you for that post, I just saw it. Now that Mn left I can answer that as best I can.



I agree with this statement and is what I would probably do. But for "this" article what I mean by quarantining is keeping a fish separate from other fish for 76 days. (I know I said 72 before but I was wrong as I don't do it so I am not an expert on it).
During that 76 days that fish is kept in a mostly bare tank so that if it has to be medicated, or removed, it can with out too much difficulty.
The fish also can not be fed live foods for fear that you may introduce a pathogen (and we know what they are so I won't go over it)

What you are proposing is not quarantine. It is just separation. At least that is what I think you mean.

I guess I'm not up on my quarantine protocol then. <lol>

In my mind there is disease resistance (body armor in case you get shot) and disease avoidance (trying not to get shot in the first place). Both seem important to me. In fact I would personally opt for not being shot at all over the protection of body armor. And quarantine (in my opinion) is any procedure with a separate tank system that assists with disease avoidance. Namely - not exposing currently healthy and happy pets to future lethal pathogens. Buying healthy fish from a reputable source is another form of disease avoidance. Good nutrition, lots of rock work, good microfauna population, good water quality, reasonable stocking levels, mated pairs - these help with disease resistance. My impression of your basic argument is that disease avoidance is not only unnecessary but instead likely harmful in that it negatively impacts disease resistance. If I correctly understand your argument, that seems wrong to me. Disease avoidance and disease resistance both seem equally important and don't seem necessarily linked. I can both wear body armor and try not to provoke people into shooting at me.

Maybe you are instead arguing that certain very aggressive types of quarantine are counter-productive? I can't imagine a 76 day quarantine period. Or not feeding live/frozen food. Or not providing rock and algae in the quarantine tank. Honestly I had no clue there was a hard and fast quarantine protocol 76 days in duration, with a full spectrum of medications, limited foods, limited if any substrate or natural shelter and so on. Maybe some people do that but no one I know.

But that is a different debate. Then we are not debating disease avoidance vs disease resistance. We are debating the merits of certain disease avoidance protocols. Medicate or not medicate. Substrate or bare bottom in the QT. Live foods or pellets. That sort of stuff. If you support isolating a fish in a separate tank that mimics your display tank until you feel comfortable that the fish is not diseased - then that is a pro-quarantine position in my mind. That is quite different from saying it is best to just toss every fish, no matter how diseased, right into the display tank because doing so enhances disease resistance and disease resistance always trumps disease avoidance. Saying such certainly generates a more lively discussion than going back and forth about best practices with regard to quarantine procedures - but, again, I don't think the reasoning is sound.

That all said - your core message of enhancing resistance to disease by creating a more natural existence for the fish is spot on in my experience. And here's hoping I have not provoked you into shooting me.

 

[Humblefish]

That really interesting. I know I would interpret the whole thing differently if it were presented as editorial instead of article.

I was just sorta saying that in jest. But I don't personally feel every article written on here needs to be Science-based or Research-based. Since 90% of this hobby runs on anecdotal evidence, what's wrong with a piece that is purely (anecdotal) Evidence-based??

 

[Thales]

I was just sorta saying that in jest. But I don't personally feel every article written on here needs to be Science-based or Research-based. Since 90% of this hobby runs on anecdotal evidence, what's wrong with a piece that is purely (anecdotal) Evidence-based??

Nothing at all wrong with any piece. I do think people treat 'articles' differently from 'editorials' - each makes a different sort of promise with the reader.

 

[atoll]

I know. I'll take that into account in future threads - btw - you have no clue how old I am - nor how long I've been reefing/building aquaria - but - my guess (and its only my guess) - is that its .50 years here. So the 'old codger' self deprecating humor gets old at some point lol

Your right I have little clue to your age or how long you have been keeping aquariums. What I call myself is what I call myself, what I might call you would have nothing to do with age. Joke [emoji6] I guess we along with Paul and a few more are geezers. [emoji3]

 

[Mortie31]

- I would humbly suggest to R2R - which is considered to be one of (if not the best) sites for reefing - that - If someone proposes to post an article - I would suggest that someone (with knowledge) read and make sure It serves a broad audience, is properly referenced as to scientific papers - or else is clearly marked as 'opinion' - ie editorial. The problem here - is that so many things that are false are presented as 'fact'. .

We don’t really want editorial review and sensorship, even if it is a B*******s post, but I think opinion should be stated and made clear by the OP, but wouldn’t 95% plus of posts would be marked thus...

 

[Paul B]

I quarantine my fish. I do not treat with chemicals I just isolate in a low stress fully functioning reef tank.

As I mentioned 300 posts back, That is in my opinion fine. Isolating fish in a low stress, "fully functioning reef tank" is great, but it's not quarantining.
As I also mentioned, for this thread, quarantining means isolating fish in a bare tank for 76 days to eliminate parasites as is what is recommended by many people including (I think) my friend Humblefish. The current "scientific" theory is that the parasites will die out in that time.

That all said - your core message of enhancing resistance to disease by creating a more natural existence for the fish is spot on in my experience. And here's hoping I have not provoked you into shooting me.

There was a time when I "may" have shot people. But I am past that and now if someone irks me, I may just go to sleep. I have very tough Sicilian skin.

But I don't personally feel every article written on here needs to be Science-based or Research-based.

I agree. Scientists designed the Space Shuttle. Remember the one that blew up? That "O" ring design was stupid. And remember the "scientists" who said the Earth was flat. Scientists have been saying silly things since they invented scientists.

We/they (fish) have an immune system for a reason. Who’s to say if you’re body doesn’t use it’s immune system that it doesn’t weaken you as a whole, not just your immune system.

I agree and I also didn't make that up. I found it in a "Scientific" paper that I researched for my book. But I don't want to look for it now because I just don't want to.

As for when I said "Nitrates are not that important to fish". I stand by that, not because of any scientific research but because I have posted numerous times over a few years when my nitrates were that high that my fish were still spawning and dying of only old age. I saw no decrease in their health so I could make that statement. I never said those nitrates are what we should strive for and mentioned many times that I wanted to lower them. They were high because I was spawning fish and wanted to over feed them so I wasn't that interested in corals at that time.
That is all in my 10 year thread.
If your nitrates are not that high, I feel you are not educated enough on that to make a statement, but you can guess.

I am glad this thread has woken up people and caused controversy. I did tell Humble when I started this that it will cause arguments and I wasn't crazy about writing it.

Now I have to go to Knee Therapy. I hate that because they beat me up, sort of what some people here are trying to do. Have a great day.

 

[atoll]

There is a guy here in the UK who has a beautiful SPS tank he reports on a UK .com site that his NO3 is eay over 100ppm and PO4 very high as well (can't recall hiw high but very high) he says hes afraid of testing they are so high yet his reef is amazing. He sells lots of frags and I visited him a while back to buy a few, his reef is the best I have ever seen in the flesh. He has a great handle calling himself screwloose some UK members on here may also know of him.

 

[Jay Norris]

There’s this guy in town that uses cloroquine phosphate and QT all his wet friends for 90 days. Yup, 3 months. Theyre all fat and healthy and zero fatality as far as he can remember. THREE WHOLE MONTHS!!!!

It really doesn't matter how long you quarantine, as long as you do it in a stress free environment, something that mimics the environment that they will be put in for the long haul. No bare bottom glass tanks.

 

[Jay Norris]

Right but thats not what you posted Quote " But frankly I've had it with this thread"
Dosent help when you say one thing but mean something else it causes confusion and even suspicion.

I believe many of us have repeated the same things over and over again in fact sometime ago I suggested it was getting repetitive. BTW has anybody used Pauls methods not QTd tangs and had success with it. [emoji6]

My Tangs in my system were never quarantined by me, straight from the ocean, or LFS right into the tank.

 

[atoll]

My Tangs in my system were never quarantined by me, straight from the ocean, or LFS right into the tank.

Maybe they were immune/ very resistant to most parasites and disease then [emoji6]

 

[Jay Norris]

Maybe they were immune/ very resistant to most parasites and disease then [emoji6]

Maybe, they looked very healthy after I caught them, or before I purchased them, just like I do with all my fish.

 

[Matt Carden]

Tank size doesn't matter depending on what you are keeping. The smaller the tank, the more stressed the fish would be and you can't put most salt water fish in a 30 gallon tank. You can keep pipefish, clowns, most gobies and bleenies but I wouldn't put tangs or angels in there.

I don't know how to confirm there are pathogens in there unless you know you are putting sick fish in.

I like the use of the word "pathogen"

 

[Sandbox]

Wow I have been following this thread from day one. I am a huge Paul B fan he was asked to write an article about how he runs a reef tank by someone who is a huge proponent of quarantine. That alone shows how respected he is and how much others value him as a reefer. We have two people on the opposite end of the spectrum who have mutual respect towards each other involved and I’m shocked how some people are on this post. Yes, we have the right to choose how we run our tanks. He was asked to write an article to share what works for him, that’s it. Like it or don’t like it who cares it doesn’t matter. It’s an open post so we all have the right the ask him questions and express why we may agree or disagree. However, to keep going on and on and nitpicking every little thing...

@Paul B thank you for your time, wit and knowledge. I enjoy reading your posts. Hope your knee feels better.

 

[Sandbox]

Hey - totally agree. Do you think feeding CI to fish makes them immune? Do you think that the rest of the 'facts' presented in his article are 'reality'? Do you feel that the average aquarist should have nitrates >160? I mean - if not why did you request this article ? This is not meant to be insulting - but Its like someone on a vaccine site asking someone who is an anivaxxer to post an article - its inviting controversy. Im sorry if you do this is not the site for me. Its not about qt vs something else. Its about whether the reasons behind the method as described in the article are sound or not. I dont QT - so I have no axe to grind on that front.

PS if we based our understanding of human medicine based on Abraham Lincolns day - we wouldn't have anesthesia - and to get your appendix out would be a 70 % mortality or more.

It doesn’t matter if he agrees or not, he asked someone he respects to write an article on his practices.

 

[Matt Carden]

Everyone agrees with you. That said every zoo and aquarium and fish breeder in the country uses some kind of qt method. The point is it isn’t either or. The people that qt don’t do it because they like extra work. They do it because over time it has been shown to be safe and effective if done correctly and solves the problem of parasites in the tank. Just like The WHO is trying to eliminate malaria. There is nothing negative that can happen be eliminating velvet from our tanks. Imho

As @Paul B has said numerous times throughout this thread: come forward and proclaim your success of a long lived QT fish/system. Only @Humblefish came forward to proclaim his success, of which Paul already knew of his success but all of us didn't.

 

[TheHarold]

So far in my relatively new 300 gallon I had an outbreak of ich/flukes, and some fish were looking pretty bad.

Knowing that there is no reef safe medication, I read a bunch of @Paul B's posts, and decided that the only way to fight it was to try to stuff the fish till they popped, lol. Good food- clams (I had to throw away the food processor after, as it is a kosher household ), mysis, fish eggs, constant sheets of algae, etc. Multiple types of algae in the clips. 12/14 fish made it, including all 4 tangs. Phosphates went up to .2, but the corals looked fine.

I did use a LITTLE bit of Kent garlic in the beginning on the algae sheets to peak the interest of the stick tangs.

Anyway, a month or two later, the fish look great with no sign of disease. They went from laying on the sand with heavy breathing, covered in spots, to happily following anyone around the tank.

 

[artieg1]

I think this is a great discussion. Fish health can seem like black magic to the casual hobbyist (like me). I have not seen the following two issues discussed, however:

(1) People whose jobs are on the line (not just egos on the line) QT religiously. All major public aquaria, from my understanding. Those institutions would never plop a new fish into a multi-million dollar display. Those people also tend to have degrees. And mortgages. They QT. I'd like to hear if there are examples of respected public aquaria that have adopted the approach of not QT-ing new arrivals.

(2) Reading these kinds of forums for the past 5 years, there is SO MUCH HEARTACHE from tank wipeouts occurring soon after introducing a new fish straight into the DT. You don't ever read someone say "I haven't added a new fish in 18 months, and everybody was dead this morning". But you see that all the time after the introduction of a new fish (and sure, many new hobbyists who are not careful with basic husbandry tend to just keep buying fish until they exhaust their funds or patience and leave the hobby). I suppose Paul's point would be that the aquarium did not have the requisite dirt and holistic healthy materials in it. But getting a tank to that stage and avoiding a wipeout seems, based on anecdote, based on these forums, quite rare.

 

[Paul B]

Sandbox, I have great respect for Humblefish and consider him a friend. We do disagree on a few things but we also both have successful tanks. If I had to leave my tank to anyone, it would be him. We can disagree and still be friends.