The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Matt Carden]

“Science’ is not closed minded, although... how many times did science claim to have it figured out until they discovered something new only find out they had it all wrong. Then once again claimed they had it all figured out.

Pluto!

 

[Paul B]

I don't get the science bashing.

I don't think I am science bashing just like I speak about professors all the time. As a matter of fact, I consider myself a Quasi Scientist.
I have two patents that are science based. But I also wrote many articles for forums and before that paper magazines and every one of them, without exception were published as fact. I am an electrician with no PhDs or letters behind my name. I could have been making things up for decades, but no one questioned it and just published it.

Scientists and professors are not Gods and I disagree with some of them occasionally but I am an avid science reader and experimenter. My experimenting is how I started in this hobby as I was one of the first to keep salt water fish when there was no information.
When the hobby started the big names in this hobby were Axelrod and Burgess. I read their books and disagreed with much of their theories. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes me inquisitive.

I don't do things inside the box because if everyone did that, we would never advance. My theory of having fish live alongside parasites is my idea and totally outside the box which is why it draws so much controversy. But my tank is successful so I don't have to prove anything.
I am tying to teach anyone who is willing to know these things. If people want to stay inside the box and follow the crowd, that is fine and what most people do.

I used to feed my Moorish Idol bananas and Plaster of Paris. People laughed but that Idol lived for five years. Five years is a failure but for a Moorish Idol it is almost a record.
People laugh at my reverse undergravel filter and my water cooled LED lights. I don't care.
Even my integrity was questioned on this thread. I think that is a little odd for a fish site as very few people on here know me. But a few here have been to my house and met me. I have not heard from them anything about my integrity.

Due to my no college background I don't have the vocabulary of many people here, but I do have street smarts and experience.
I didn't have to go to college we had that war thing going on.

 

[Sandbox]

Spot on and well put. If somebody asked me to write in detail how I keep my reef and what I believed was behind my successes and why after partaking in this thread with some of the comments I would surely decline. R2R is a large group so there will be lots of questions posed when somebody writes something that is outside the box. However, why would anybody put themselves through what Paul has been through I have no idea. It's to Paul's credit he has stayed calm and done his best to answer all questions in the face of adversity while some appear to loose their heads. I think I would have given up long ago.

Exactly I wouldn’t be so calm. One of my post was already deleted oops . That makes me respect him more. I’m glad he wrote the article. Since reading it, I’ve made homemade food for my fish. My blue hippo tang’s face is getting bluer and all of th fish are happier. Someone takes their time to help us out and others need to dissect it and argue non stop.

 

[Matt Carden]

This was a good post at one time, now it's getting very repetitive, as Paul states the way he keeps his tank is very successful for him, and the way you keep your tank is very successful for you, so lets leave it at that , and let the individual aquarist make up their own minds in the way they want to take care of their fish, either scientifically, or the other way.

CAN WE SAY THIS AGAIN!!!

THE SAME OLD ARGUMENT OVER AND OVER BY THE SAME POSTER WITH PROBABLY 400 POSTS IN THIS THREAD ALONE! I PERSONALLY STOPPED READING THAT MEMBERS POSTS BACK ON PAGE 20!

 

[Thales]

I don't think I am science bashing just like I speak about professors all the time. As a matter of fact, I consider myself a Quasi Scientist.
I have two patents that are science based. But I also wrote many articles for forums and before that paper magazines and every one of them, without exception were published as fact. I am an electrician with no PhDs or letters behind my name. I could have been making things up for decades, but no one questioned it and just published it.

Like I say, I don't get why you bash science. You seem to use it when it supports your ideas, but put it in quotes and imply it is not to be trusted when it doesn't support your ideas.

Scientists and professors are not Gods and I disagree with some of them occasionally but I am an avid science reader and experimenter. My experimenting is how I started in this hobby as I was one of the first to keep salt water fish when there was no information.
When the hobby started the big names in this hobby were Axelrod and Burgess. I read their books and disagreed with much of their theories. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes me inquisitive.

So I don't get why you say things like "I agree. Scientists designed the Space Shuttle. Remember the one that blew up? That "O" ring design was stupid. And remember the "scientists" who said the Earth was flat. Scientists have been saying silly things since they invented scientists"

I don't do things inside the box because if everyone did that, we would never advance. My theory of having fish live alongside parasites is my idea and totally outside the box which is why it draws so much controversy.

The idea is neither unique nor outside the box. It may seem so due to Forum trends, but it isn't.

But my tank is successful so I don't have to prove anything.

I don't think anyone wants you to prove anything, they just want you to support your ideas in areas they need to be supported.

I am tying to teach anyone who is willing to know these things. If people want to stay inside the box and follow the crowd, that is fine and what most people do.

People aren't doing any of that (if they are they are few and far between), they are examining your ideas in detail to see if they hold up. Like you say you did with others.

I used to feed my Moorish Idol bananas and Plaster of Paris. People laughed but that Idol lived for five years. Five years is a failure but for a Moorish Idol it is almost a record.
People laugh at my reverse undergravel filter and my water cooled LED lights. I don't care.

I don't care if they laugh either, I care about if you are right in your conclusions about those thing actually having an effect - and that is where it gets tricky. A reverse undergravel is fine if that floats your boat -saying that you need it would be another matter.
I know a lot of 10 year old Moorish Idols, none of them have eaten bananas and plaster of paris, though plaster of paris has commonly been used as a feeding substrate in the past.

Due to my no college background I don't have the vocabulary of many people here, but I do have street smarts and experience.
I didn't have to go to college we had that war thing going on.

I see you say lots of stuff like that, but I don't see anyone taking you to task for not having more education or larger vocabulary You seem to say it when someone asks you to support a point, which seems strange, as it seems easier to support the point instead.

 

[Matt Carden]

Right but thats not what you posted Quote " But frankly I've had it with this thread"
Dosent help when you say one thing but mean something else it causes confusion and even suspicion.

I believe many of us have repeated the same things over and over again in fact sometime ago I suggested it was getting repetitive. BTW has anybody used Pauls methods not QTd tangs and had success with it. [emoji6]

I will be in a few months and will post updates. I am changing my water this weekend after 2 months cycle. Hopefully will pass ammonia test and I will start to add diversity and fish soon.

 

[MnFish1]

.50 years? I’ve been doing this longer than that. And I’ve only been at it for 7 months.

Want to be careful for those readers that take everything litterally and don’t look at things with a discerning eye and take from those with experience what might be useful...

People might think you’re a rookie...

LOLOLOLOL - yes - 50... (fifty) not 0.5.

 

[atoll]

I don't think I am science bashing just like I speak about professors all the time. As a matter of fact, I consider myself a Quasi Scientist.
I have two patents that are science based. But I also wrote many articles for forums and before that paper magazines and every one of them, without exception were published as fact. I am an electrician with no PhDs or letters behind my name. I could have been making things up for decades, but no one questioned it and just published it.

Scientists and professors are not Gods and I disagree with some of them occasionally but I am an avid science reader and experimenter. My experimenting is how I started in this hobby as I was one of the first to keep salt water fish when there was no information.
When the hobby started the big names in this hobby were Axelrod and Burgess. I read their books and disagreed with much of their theories. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes me inquisitive.

I don't do things inside the box because if everyone did that, we would never advance. My theory of having fish live alongside parasites is my idea and totally outside the box which is why it draws so much controversy. But my tank is successful so I don't have to prove anything.
I am tying to teach anyone who is willing to know these things. If people want to stay inside the box and follow the crowd, that is fine and what most people do.

I used to feed my Moorish Idol bananas and Plaster of Paris. People laughed but that Idol lived for five years. Five years is a failure but for a Moorish Idol it is almost a record.

Due to my no college background I don't have the vocabulary of many people here, but I do have street smarts and experience.
I didn't have to go to college we had that war thing going on.

We have similar backgrounds in both our vocations and approach to our reefkeeping as you know Paul. I have also had my writtings published and in fact I am proud to have been awarded the article of the year 2 years running for 2 of them 1987 and 1989. The first one was for my article entitled choices and reasons which coincidentally was all about why I keep small fish, how I keep them and ny rational. I don't recall the second one not that it matters in the context of your thread. I also like to experiment to a point and have a saying "if it ain't broken fix it anyway" this is how I learnt my reefkeeping ways which have been tweaked year on year in some form or other. If I hadn't of taken that approach I doubt I would still be in this fine hobby of ours nor would I have made the discoveries I have with the successes I have achieved. I was making my own foods when the "experts" with ologies were saying I was asking for trouble and I would wipe my tank out. Am still waiting. I was told by many my filter DIY sump system was dommed to failure as it only turned the DT over once every 3 hours, it never happened and was a great success. Talking about zoos the professors at Chestet Zoo and aquarium visited me to see what I was doing and what succes I was having. I even helped them with advice about some of their tanks. The same with the small Bolton public aquarium not far from me. I opened their eyes but more importantly I opened their minds to different ideas. I have done lecturers at the Blue planet in Elsemere Port, Whipsnaid zoo and other venues. I was often left wondering what some of these learned people knew about actually keeping marine fish and corals although they could have run rings round me with their science. I could go on but enough is enough. I will close by saying don't be afraid to question the science and beliefs of today tomorrow it could be overturned.

 

[Matt Carden]

And remember the "scientists" who said the Earth was flat. Scientists have been saying silly things since they invented scientists.

In case you've been living in a bubble, some scientists, youtubers, etc. believe the world is flat now! Millions of people!

 

[MnFish1]

We don’t really want editorial review and sensorship, even if it is a B*******s post, but I think opinion should be stated and made clear by the OP, but wouldn’t 95% plus of posts would be marked thus...

Since I brought it up - I'll respond to this. IN MY OPINION- An article - is not the same as a 'post'. No one is arguing that posts should be censored or reviewed. Articles that make specific recommendations (to me) are different they should be fact based and be referenced. I also dont think people should be stopped from posting articles like the one Paul did at the top of this thread) - however it is not fact based, its not referenced and contains numerous factual errors. The point is that a 'new reader/reefer' reading this could do things that are incorrect. For example in his responses here - Paul mentions that nitrate is not a 'big deal' for FOWLR tanks (paraphrased). In the article it says something a little different:

I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree. Scientists designed the Space Shuttle. Remember the one that blew up? That "O" ring design was stupid. And remember the "scientists" who said the Earth was flat. Scientists have been saying silly things since they invented scientists.

I hope the knee doctor you're going to today doesn't suggest that you smear horseradish on your knee - because his grandmother did. I hope he uses his best scientific judgement based on evidence to help you.

 

[atoll]

In case you've been living in a bubble, some scientists, youtubers, etc. believe the world is flat now! Millions of people!

Of course its flat, well apart from the moutains, valleys and deep sea obviously and I have a spirit level to prove it. [emoji6]

 

[MnFish1]

There is a guy here in the UK who has a beautiful SPS tank he reports on a UK .com site that his NO3 is eay over 100ppm and PO4 very high as well (can't recall hiw high but very high) he says hes afraid of testing they are so high yet his reef is amazing. He sells lots of frags and I visited him a while back to buy a few, his reef is the best I have ever seen in the flesh. He has a great handle calling himself screwloose some UK members on here may also know of him.

Thats interesting - I've asked several people about his phenomenon in reefing - xxx person has a tank with parameters most people would cringe at (like your guy above). The best answer I've heard for this is the organisms that survived in these conditions have evolved/adapted to the conditions in the tank - which likely occurred slowly over years. The organisms that couldn't tolerate these conditions didn't survive and the tank is left looking beautiful - with the organisms that were able to survive the conditions. I dont know if this is right or wrong - but it seems plausible

 

[Thales]

Thats interesting - I've asked several people about his phenomenon in reefing - xxx person has a tank with parameters most people would cringe at (like your guy above). The best answer I've heard for this is the organisms that survived in these conditions have evolved/adapted to the conditions in the tank - which likely occurred slowly over years. The organisms that couldn't tolerate these conditions didn't survive and the tank is left looking beautiful - with the organisms that were able to survive the conditions. I dont know if this is right or wrong - but it seems plausible

Have you seen my article or talk on the subject?

 

[atoll]

Thats interesting - I've asked several people about his phenomenon in reefing - xxx person has a tank with parameters most people would cringe at (like your guy above). The best answer I've heard for this is the organisms that survived in these conditions have evolved/adapted to the conditions in the tank - which likely occurred slowly over years. The organisms that couldn't tolerate these conditions didn't survive and the tank is left looking beautiful - with the organisms that were able to survive the conditions. I dont know if this is right or wrong - but it seems plausible

His tank was populated mainly with frags from others I understand some coming from (so called) far better water quality than his. However, no doubt he took quite some time to acclimatise them but I am unsure if that is the case just pure speculation on my part.

 

[Thales]

I have elevated nitrate and phosphate (70 and 1.8) and have no problem with frags or corals going right into the system.

 

[atoll]

I have elevated nitrate and phosphate (70 and 1.8) and have no problem with frags or corals going right into the system.

Mature system as in a couple of years old or more?

 

[MnFish1]

Have you seen my article or talk on the subject?

No lol but im not surprised that there is one. It was when I was having some trouble - and trying to micromanage my tank - and you read one article and it says a the other says the opposite. I.e. people giving 'their method' of success - which probably cant be (for the most part) generalized to a lot of tanks. I finally just picked methods that made sense - and have stuck to them. I still have coral that just will not grow in my tank. (corals that are considered 'easy') - yet others - that are 'difficult' (goniopora) - grow, and thrive.

 

[Paul B]

I hope the knee doctor you're going to today doesn't suggest that you smear horseradish on your knee - because his grandmother did. I hope he uses his best scientific judgement based on evidence to help you.

Actually there is a horseradish farm down the road from here and I eat the stuff every day. I haven't smeared it on my knee yet, but maybe tonight.

 

[Mortie31]

Have you seen my article or talk on the subject?

Can you post a link please?