The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

Tony Thompson

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I can envisage how a diverse microbiological environment, that sustains a range of food sources and a correctly balanced diet would be universally agreed as a positive. However, introducing pathogens and parasites in an uncontrolled fashion to an enclosed system containing captive animals, in the belief it will help maintain or increase an animals immune system, IMO advocates negligence.

To suggest as some have, that animals in the wild do not die from pathogens, is just not true. They are regularly documented cases of large die offs of animals directly linked to disease outbreaks. Fortunately these incidents are usually confined by geography. Some times these events have a positive effect on the marine environment, stimulating new diversity due to population control.

As an LFS owner and hobbyist myself for over 30 years, IME, the vast majority of hobbyists don't quarantine their animals. As a matter of biosecurity, all the animals in my store are routinely quarantined for a period of upto 6 weeks and treated for external and internal parasites before being transferred to the display tanks for sale. As a store owner I have a duty of care for these animals and on inspection it is my experience that the vast majority of animals from the major wholesalers carry parasites that would negatively impact the animals well being. I strongly advocate the use of quarantine procedure to my customers and offer advice on treatment for visible signs of ill health.

It breaks my heart when a fellow hobbyist comes to my store for advice on a serious outbreak of a disease in their DT, that is rapidly killing their pets. In most cases its very difficult to diagnose the leading cause or to late to do anything. In many cases this can lead them to giving up the hobby all together.

It is also evident that, Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is generally perceived as the main threat to the marine hobbyist. The fact is that although sometimes devastating this particular parasite is not generally considered as a priority by the OIE (World Organisation for Animal Health Organisation). It has been well documented that certain species and animals with a strong immune defence can survive outbreaks of this parasite. However it would be imprudent to use such cases an excuse to ignore the threat.

In conclusion I would like to clarify that I agree that medication and quarantine procedures can induce a stressful state in some animals and in fact can lead in some cases to their demise. However the main reason for quarantine is not necessarily to save the life of a new acquisition, but to protect the whole community within your main display from unnecessary harm.

My advice would be to always quarantine. Surely, its better to lose the one new acquisition than loose the whole tank.
 
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Paul B

Paul B

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Jay, I never met Robert but still have his book and it was my bible for many years. He was a true pioneer and many of his methods today would be considered ridiculous. The man collected and kept everything and I was in Awe at his capabilities. I envy you for knowing him.

Tony, as I said, this is not meant to tell people not to quarantine. That works great for many people. This is just another way and I have been keeping for over 60 years.
I have tried all methods and this one works for me. :D
 

NS Mike D

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This 10 year old mandarin thrived in my tank because of the growth on the rocks. Clean rocks equal dead mandarins.



another learning moment from @Paul B . I've been scrubbing my rocks and dosing H2O2 (pretty sure there was a significant dino outbreak) and in the back of my mind, while admiring the general decline if the nuisance algae (and dinos), I've wondered if I have been killing off the pod population. A few weeks ago I dosed more pods even though I have 2 fuges/sumps connected to my nano.

I'm coming to the end of the H2O2 dosing program. I am ok with the red and green turf algae on the rocks. Thanks for reminding me that the health of the my mandarin is more important that how clean the rock look.

... and now back to the QT discussion .....
 

fishybizzness

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Earlier last year I was going through a rough time where I couldn't seem to get any new fish to live past 2-3 weeks. My new additions all seemed very healthy and for unknown reasons would suddenly go downhill within a few days. I was very much at the point of quitting. I asked for help and received alot of great advice on R2R . Everything from quarantining to going fallow. I had been fairly successful the year prior but went through several hurricanes. After the storms, the fresh food I had been feeding became more difficult to get and I was working crazy hours so pellets became more convenient for me to get. I realized that all my problems started after that point. I was finally able to get the fresh food to Include mussels ,shrimp, squid, octopus as well as fresh mahi roe. I started feeding strictly fresh with a little selcon added. At around the same time I added a uv filter as well as ozone. It's been months since I lost any fish. I added a filefish as well as a night sergeant. I had to rehome both of them because the filefish started eating my zoas and the sergeant got too big and was tormenting my wrasses. They are both doing well and the sergeant has become a celebrity at the local marine park! I plan on upgrading to my 120 in a few months and definitely plan on using those same methods. I believe that my turnaround was definitely linked to the change in food and would never go back to pellets as a sole food source.
 

Jay Norris

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Probably because there is a history of difficult to keep species, more susceptible to carry, bring, or develop, disease. Just like there are fish with scales, without, etc.

I think one common theme in this thread is one of tank maturity. That is different than a tank cycle.
I agree with you 100% on tank maturity, but I also believe the most important thing to do is start out with a very high quality live rock, and let it mature for a very long time before you overload your tank with fish and other animals. Feeding the fish and corals a very high quality frozen and fresh food diet is also up there with importance.
 

count krunk

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well,

I will be employing this "other way" with my breeder build if anyone wants to follow that progress (slow build).

To hit on some main points that I believe are part of this "other method" that I will be employing are below

  • live rock from TBS for bulk of rock
  • feeding food outlined in the thread
  • moving slow as tank gets established
  • running ozone
I am also not a noob, reefing off and on since 2007. And I think I will FW dip my fishes before adding to the display
 

hotashes

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another learning moment from @Paul B . I've been scrubbing my rocks and dosing H2O2 (pretty sure there was a significant dino outbreak) and in the back of my mind, while admiring the general decline if the nuisance algae (and dinos), I've wondered if I have been killing off the pod population. A few weeks ago I dosed more pods even though I have 2 fuges/sumps connected to my nano.

I'm coming to the end of the H2O2 dosing program. I am ok with the red and green turf algae on the rocks. Thanks for reminding me that the health of the my mandarin is more important that how clean the rock look.

... and now back to the QT discussion .....

May I add when I used 3%h202 on my rocks (directly dosed outside of tank) my pods didn’t die, nor did my fanworms. In fact I had to pick some amphipods out of the h202 run off and plop them back into my nano. For the record is 40L/14g and home to 1” Tridacna Maxima, Tridacna Crocea and Tridacna Derasa as well as fish including blue stripe pipefish. It’s best to keep an open mind as that’ll prevail in the long run.

A.
 

Jay Norris

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Jay, I never met Robert but still have his book and it was my bible for many years. He was a true pioneer and many of his methods today would be considered ridiculous. The man collected and kept everything and I was in Awe at his capabilities. I envy you for knowing him.

Tony, as I said, this is not meant to tell people not to quarantine. That works great for many people. This is just another way and I have been keeping for over 60 years.
I have tried all methods and this one works for me. :D
Well it seems you are keeping some of his visions alive on this website, thanks for the memories. It was different back then, we would go out in the boat and collect anything we liked or looked good in the tanks, and try to understand why all these fish or organism either lived or died. we didn't have the internet back then, and being still in Jr. High School the knowledge was hard to come by even living near one of the pioneering aquarist at that time.
 

ReefWithCare

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Thanks for taking the time to write this @Paul B

As I've said previously, it's up to each and every person to decide for themselves how to go about keeping their fish healthy. I outline (quarantine) protocols which have worked the best for me. I also do not feel our methods are mutually exclusive, as I use many of your nutritional tips (live blackworms, fish oil, etc.) in both QT and DT. It makes all the sense in the world to build up your fishes' immunity whether they go through QT or not.

Happy New Year, my friend! :)

What’s the fish oil tip? Got a product link?
 

ReefWithCare

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I can envisage how a diverse microbiological environment, that sustains a range of food sources and a correctly balanced diet would be universally agreed as a positive. However, introducing pathogens and parasites in an uncontrolled fashion to an enclosed system containing captive animals, in the belief it will help maintain or increase an animals immune system, IMO advocates negligence.

To suggest as some have, that animals in the wild do not die from pathogens, is just not true. They are regularly documented cases of large die offs of animals directly linked to disease outbreaks. Fortunately these incidents are usually confined by geography. Some times these events have a positive effect on the marine environment, stimulating new diversity due to population control.

As an LFS owner and hobbyist myself for over 30 years, IME, the vast majority of hobbyists don't quarantine their animals. As a matter of biosecurity, all the animals in my store are routinely quarantined for a period of upto 6 weeks and treated for external and internal parasites before being transferred to the display tanks for sale. As a store owner I have a duty of care for these animals and on inspection it is my experience that the vast majority of animals from the major wholesalers carry parasites that would negatively impact the animals well being. I strongly advocate the use of quarantine procedure to my customers and offer advice on treatment for visible signs of ill health.

It breaks my heart when a fellow hobbyist comes to my store for advice on a serious outbreak of a disease in their DT, that is rapidly killing their pets. In most cases its very difficult to diagnose the leading cause or to late to do anything. In many cases this can lead them to giving up the hobby all together.

It is also evident that, Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) is generally perceived as the main threat to the marine hobbyist. The fact is that although sometimes devastating this particular parasite is not generally considered as a priority by the OIE (World Organisation for Animal Health Organisation). It has been well documented that certain species and animals with a strong immune defence can survive outbreaks of this parasite. However it would be imprudent to use such cases an excuse to ignore the threat.

In conclusion I would like to clarify that I agree that medication and quarantine procedures can induce a stressful state in some animals and in fact can lead in some cases to their demise. However the main reason for quarantine is not necessarily to save the life of a new acquisition, but to protect the whole community within your main display from unnecessary harm.

My advice would be to always quarantine. Surely, its better to lose the one new acquisition than loose the whole tank.

What’s your LFS so I can tell people shop there
 

Sandbox

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This will be very tough as most of Noobs tanks have so many problems not related to immunity that it will be hard to distinguish what is what.
I hesitate to give advice to Noobs and never tell them to give up quarantining even though I disagree with it. But I am not a noob and when I was, there was no one else so I did it the hard way.
A new tank with dry rock and sand will be a big problem with any method, I think we can all agree on that. This hobby is not that hard, but starting a new tank from scratch is. Especially when the person starting it is not aware what spots or behavior is normal or not.

I walk through a friends LFS and point out fish and say, That fish won't live the night and that one will be dead in 3 days. He hates when I do that but after 60 years of looking these things in the eye, you get a sense of their health. :D

I feel a new tank should have a good portion of the tank taken from an existing tank that is already set up just like we start cultures of things like worms and pods. I feel it could take 2 or 3 years for bacteria to settle down and do what they are supposed to do, maybe longer.

But I also feel that the fish we buy (from the sea) are already immune and all we have to do is cultivate that immunity that is dormant in stressed, underfed fish. Not add more stress. We want to get that fish out of a dealers tank as soon as possible but we also don't want to put it into another sterile, semi bare tank.
That, to me is just like quarantine and PVC pipes don't make fish happy as all new water is also detrimental to any sea creature.
All our fish come from reefs with a good amount of growth on them and not from sterile quarries. They like to hunt in those patches of growth and it makes them feel safer. They know when you add something artificial and don't trust it. Put a sunken chest in or a clean shell and they will avoid it for days until it has a growth on it. Even the feeder I invented won't attract any mandarins until it sits in there for a week or so.

I took this somewhere in the Caribbean last year. See the growth.


This is Key Largo in Florida.


And a remote Island off Hawaii. Notice the growth, or mulm



We have to stop cleaning off every bit of algae and detritus. Fish and more important the microscope creatures that help keep our tank healthy depend on this stuff. Most reefs are not pristine looking except in the South Pacific where there are so many corals that there is no room for mulm but numerous hiding places like here in Bora Bora.



Noob tanks almost always are to clean looking and are cleaned to much. I think a rock with some growth or even hair algae should be present in any new tank.
It's not just immunity that keeps a tank healthy and it's also not parameters. It is the stuff that fish are used to seeing and living in. My house is very clean and an ant wouldn't dare walk in here, but I am not a fish. We need to stop thinking of our tanks as a thing of beauty and think of them as a natural setting for the creatures we are trying to make comfortable. Just my opinion of course. :rolleyes:

Love it!
 

Tony Thompson

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Jay, I never met Robert but still have his book and it was my bible for many years. He was a true pioneer and many of his methods today would be considered ridiculous. The man collected and kept everything and I was in Awe at his capabilities. I envy you for knowing him.

Tony, as I said, this is not meant to tell people not to quarantine. That works great for many people. This is just another way and I have been keeping for over 60 years.
I have tried all methods and this on
e works for me. :D

Hi @Paul B , I totally agree with many aspects of your methods and understand your reasoning for most parts. Especially the nutritional aspects. I am also a pupil of the microbiological diversity methods. One of my local aquariums was the
musée
Océanographique de Monaco. I have followed the methods and theories of Professor Jean Jaubert for many years. I believe that the inclusion of a live food chain has major advantages with regards fish health. I just wonder why exclude the quarantine all together. Maybe your method would be enhanced by the inclusion of quarantine. I just can't understand how it would have a negative impact. Best wishes from across the pond.
 

Tony Thompson

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What’s your LFS so I can tell people shop there

Hi @ReefWithCare , I don't think it would be appropriate to mention my company on a forum. My intention is to discuss matters with fellow reefers and promote modern reefing methods. However if you would like to private message me and that is allowed by the moderators I can discuss the matter further.
 

AbnormalReefer

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Hi,

This is a very interesting thread, idea, and method as a whole. Now I will add my personal input:

I’ve so far had 2 naso tangs and 1 chocolate tang succumb. The nasos had ich and the chocolate had an unknown infection. However, it wasn’t the diseases that killed them. It was my own fault. I killed the chocolate and first naso because of freshwater dipping them. Then on the 2nd, larger naso tang I used Seachem Paraguard instead mixed in saltwater; naso didn’t make it overnight.

Honestly I think all of those 3 beautiful fish would still be alive if I didn’t screw around with medicating them and just let nature take its course. The chocolate I suspected had the infection for nearly a month. He was fine and eating until dumb me decided to stress him out, scoop him out from a plentiful food haven into harsh freshwater, and kill him.

Meanwhile my purple tang had ich and I let him go into the display. He’s eating well and loves nori to this day (my theory is that he’s built some immunity to the ich).

At the same time though, I’ve never had something like velvet ravage my tank. So I can’t speak on that....
 
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Paul B

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What’s the fish oil tip? Got a product link?

In the sea fish eat mostly fish. Those fish all have a liver which can be 20% of the weight of the fish or more and that liver is almost all oil. So a wild fishes diet has a large percentage of oil in it. Most of the foods we feed don't have any oil and I think it is badly needed. Healthy fish develop eggs constantly and those eggs could be almost a third the weight of the Mother and they are mostly oil.
I sometimes take some freeze dried worms or pellets and put a drop of cod liver on it. Let it soak in and feed it to my fish. I kept a moorish Idol alive five years on that (and sponge)

I just wonder why exclude the quarantine all together. Maybe your method would be enhanced by the inclusion of quarantine. I just can't understand how it would have a negative impact. Best wishes from across the pond.

Tony. All fish in the sea have immunity to just about everything. They have to because they are in a soup of pathogens. The fish come to us immune but weak so their immunity is not working which is why most of the fish you see will develop something unless they are medicated. Fish, and us humans develop immunity to pathogens as we become exposed to them. Fish in the sea get their immunity from their Mother who is immune. But if a fish (or us) is not exposed to those pathogens for a period of time (that varies with species) we lose that immunity. That is why we get flu, measles, and tetna shots all the time. We lose our immunity to those things.
The fishes immune system uses the most calories a fish eats. The process of making slime alone takes a huge toll on fish and that slime is full of anti bacterial and anti parasitic substances.
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/marine-fish-heal-through-slime-3962/

Quarantining for 72 days would severely weaken a fishes immunity to a specific pathogen because it is not exposed to it. If that fish then lives in a tank, especially a quarantined tank, it will certainly have no immunity to anything and will succumb to any thing that gets in to that tank. No live foods can be fed to that tank which is a fishes stable in the sea.
But if we get a fish from the sea and put it in a tank with no quarantine or medication. Give it the proper food right away, that immunity will kick in and the slight infection it may get will be averted.
Now this is not 100% perfect of course because we don't know how long the fish was in a dealer and wholesalers tank, if it was fed etc. But in at least 35 years in my 47 year old tank, I have never introduced a disease that infected the rest of my fish. The new fish may die, not usually but it could happen, but quarantined fish die very often in quarantine because that is very stressful.

Also a quarantined fish in a quarantined tank will never be as healthy as it can be because it has no immune system. Like a cancer patient that had Chemo to kill their immunity. That person has to practically live in a bubble. He can live for years like that but if someone sneezes on him, he could die.

A person such as me who rode the New York Subway system every day for 40 years rarely gets sick and those things are filthy, but a tourist will probably develop something because they are not exposed to those things.
How many people here have a fish that was quarantined, in a quarantined tank die of old age, spawn and never get sick?
All my fish do that an most of them are over 10 years old some almost 30. They have never been sick. I have no hospital tank, quarantine tank or medications because disease in my tank is non existent.
I have been on this forum for almost 10 years and i post everything I do to my tank. Many people have come to see my tank and anyone is welcome to come see my practices which are very few.

 

tehmadreefer

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E82B9348-843B-43E0-9D99-66C2493C0D78.jpeg
787663D0-1661-4C3B-A731-34271C2F9990.jpeg
Yeah, how long have you had it, how big is your UV, do you run a diatom? How about an oxydator?

Your comment is unnecessary. Why make it personal? You can't just state your opinion without trying to discredit people like @Humblefish and others who spend mounds of time on this site and doing research for the betterment of this hobby. Where are you at everyday helping people that didn't QT their fish and are losing a tank full of fish? While they are freaking out and looking for advice?

No one has said it can't be done, for the beginner or even intermediate hobbyist attempting to keep fish like an acanthurus tang without QT likely won't end well. Especially given the things we are seeing coming in on newly arriving fish. There are several species (like Paul's) that are much more resistant and likely to do better kept in an ich management environment.

Here’s a pic. I don’t run a UV or anything else in particular. Just a algae barrel and a fuge. Had my pbt for at least 6 months now.

I comment on a lot of threads you and 4ford reply on as you two think it’s absolutely necessary to qt powders and fish in general when it’s not. You specifically have been in the hobby what, 2 years? I’ve been doin this for well over a decade...

Here’s a pic of the fish in my tank along with 3 Anthias a cbb, Fox Face and clowns. Disregard the huge aiptasia outbreak lol
 

brandon429

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@yungreefer2410

I'm having to thumb scroll twenty times to reply heh

Yes that's great. You are testing the method very well, as the counter option of quarantine is an exercise in precision materials handling and time

They don't use environmental controls other than starvation/host removal, so to use uv, ozone, or any other method cannot confound. We already know bare white live rock + pre rinsed sand (consider bumming a scoop out of an asymptomatic main display somewhere/seeding) will commute infection

The literal opposite method is as aged and diverse of surfaces you can get, aquacultured rock with life knurls being ideal. Powerful skip cycle setup, a diversity transfer not an ammonia up/down transfer, you know what I mean by skip cycle. The heart of the TBS method of transfer. Strong water changes after install like cpr pumps, transfer all that life it'll stick in place just fine.

Thank you very much, you're going to have a great reef regardless of any outcome, and in my opinion you're aligning every variable I can think of because any combination of environmental control + feeding is a strong validation of tenets offered.

If you used a combo of UV, ozone, high micron straining/whatever, those don't confound a claim of time and isolation so I say align what you can to be infection free. if you pull it off from lfs to display skipping the normal ttm method and you can use a couple higher challenge fish it will be great.

Ps
I don't think an initial loss or two to a perhaps diseases ruins your test at all. Keep going if it occurs. I'm willing to accept and investigate if merely aging those awesome surfaces in place in your tank a while, on site maturation, makes your tank disease resistant over time.

We just need someone who will keep updates for a couple years as it progresses, this too is a time test. Initial fail is not even a confound. Arriving at disease resistance counts as a win for Paul's method.
 
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tehmadreefer

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I’ll put pretty much any level of difficulty fish straight into my DT, if anyone is willing to pay for such fish! I don’t have another tank and willing to document. Plus I know my tank 100% has ich in it!!
 

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