The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[GeoSquid]

on a side note..... I bought some fresh seafood at a market yesterday to make fish food - No clams, but they had huge oysters and also whole shrimp with the head still on. I decided to rip off the head of one of the shrimp and throw it in the tank. These shrimp were huge! The head was about 2-3 inches long. Ooops. The fish tore into it and my whole tank is cloudy now. I didn't realize there was so much "stuff" in the head of shrimp. It was enough to cloud my 180 gallon. I see more algae in my future - ha
I have a really cheap phone that has a crappy camera but here is the mess!

 

[Paul B]

Your corals will love it.

 

[Paul B]

Wow, that is great that it works so well. I'll bet you would never get that kind of information from a doctor.

Actually her both neurologists and her accupuncturist (from China) recommends stuff like this and says it sometimes works better than prescription meds with no side effects and besides that, it is very healthy.

 

[zalick]

@Paul B - How does your use of bleach, ozone and the diatom filter affect the parasitic/viral load in your system? In addition to feeding and not medicating, these aspects seem to have been important in establishing your tank. It’s not mentioned in the initial post. Could this be beneficial for new reefers implementing your style of system who may experience higher viral and parasitic loads?

 

[Paul B]

Zalick, good morning. I have not used bleach in probably 35 years but I used to use it when I collected NSW from the East River which is an estuary that runs next to Manhattan. At that time I didn't know any better and was afraid of parasites. I also didn't invent it. That was Robert Straughn
"The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping". The first squid eggs were hatched out in Clorox treated water.

As for Ozone, I also have not used that in almost 4 years because my Ozone generator croaked but I want to get another one. I don't want to kill or eliminate parasites but I feel it is great for water conditions and I think it reduces coral toxins that are constantly exuded in a tank which causes cycles.

I use my over 50 year old diatom filter a couple of times a year because I run a reverse undergravel filter and I need a strong pump to stir up the gravel so it doesn't clog. I can also use any canister filter for that but my diatom filter still runs (somewhat) so I use that. I don't need the fine filtering that the diatom provides but I like the strong powerwash I get.

I also sometimes use my diatom filter when I collect NSW because I take it from the surf and the water is full of sand and chopped up seaweed so it is green and murky. That won't hurt my tank but I like my tank crystal clear. If I take water from my boat or somewhere not from the surf, I don't need to filter it.

People who want to use my system should not worry about parasites, bacteria or viruses because my system depends on having those things. I feel the biggest problem by far in this hobby is the idea that we have to severely reduce or totally eliminate those things.

Last week I added two cardinals infected with ich. I think they died as I can't find them but I am happy for the new parasites which will add to the immunity.

If your tank has no parasites, your fish are not immune to them and they are sterile fish just like people with cancer who just had Chemo.

One of my closest friends has bone cancer and always has to wear a mask, even before Covid. He can't eat fresh fruit or vegetables or be near anyone because he has no immune system and he can easily die. He can live many years like this but he doesn't want to . It's not natural and he is always sick where he is hospitalized all the time for the slightest thing.

It is the same with fish and as long as people try to eliminate pathogens, they will have sick fish which will not live very long and that is the main reason there are no old quarantined tanks. I don't think a fish can live it's normal lifespan with no immunity as immunity is an integral part of a living animal.

If people have a parasite infected fish they can cure it in a day or two if they use copper and a diatom filter. If they can get quinicrine hydrocloride or a similar malaria drug and mix it with copper, the fish will be free of parasites in a day or two.

But if you run a natural system with a full compliment of pathogens and feed correctly with some live foods, some clams and no dry foods and have a tank full of caves and hiding places where you can't see the fish and the tank has some growth on it. They shouldn't have any problems.

 

[Appoloreefer]

After years of arguing against Paul’s logic, and now years of agreeing, have to say i’m Never going back. Unless a new fish is obviously unhealthy from stress or shows signs of brook do not qt. IMO sometimes a fish can use a few days of alone time to recuperate, and even then it’s not in sterile water. The qt is filled with water straight from display. Which I know has ich and yes, I have tangs. A 7” hippo, 6” sailfin, 5” purple, and 4” bpt

I never quarantine fish and have never had any die or get sick, so this is a true statement.

 

[Paul B]

You can. But the worms are healthy enough already

 

[Daniel@R2R]

Another great discussion to continue...

 

[fishmonkey]

Zalick, good morning. I have not used bleach in probably 35 years but I used to use it when I collected NSW from the East River which is an estuary that runs next to Manhattan. At that time I didn't know any better and was afraid of parasites. I also didn't invent it. That was Robert Straughn
"The Father of Salt Water Fish Keeping". The first squid eggs were hatched out in Clorox treated water.

As for Ozone, I also have not used that in almost 4 years because my Ozone generator croaked but I want to get another one. I don't want to kill or eliminate parasites but I feel it is great for water conditions and I think it reduces coral toxins that are constantly exuded in a tank which causes cycles.

I use my over 50 year old diatom filter a couple of times a year because I run a reverse undergravel filter and I need a strong pump to stir up the gravel so it doesn't clog. I can also use any canister filter for that but my diatom filter still runs (somewhat) so I use that. I don't need the fine filtering that the diatom provides but I like the strong powerwash I get.

I also sometimes use my diatom filter when I collect NSW because I take it from the surf and the water is full of sand and chopped up seaweed so it is green and murky. That won't hurt my tank but I like my tank crystal clear. If I take water from my boat or somewhere not from the surf, I don't need to filter it.

People who want to use my system should not worry about parasites, bacteria or viruses because my system depends on having those things. I feel the biggest problem by far in this hobby is the idea that we have to severely reduce or totally eliminate those things.

Last week I added two cardinals infected with ich. I think they died as I can't find them but I am happy for the new parasites which will add to the immunity.

If your tank has no parasites, your fish are not immune to them and they are sterile fish just like people with cancer who just had Chemo.

One of my closest friends has bone cancer and always has to wear a mask, even before Covid. He can't eat fresh fruit or vegetables or be near anyone because he has no immune system and he can easily die. He can live many years like this but he doesn't want to . It's not natural and he is always sick where he is hospitalized all the time for the slightest thing.

It is the same with fish and as long as people try to eliminate pathogens, they will have sick fish which will not live very long and that is the main reason there are no old quarantined tanks. I don't think a fish can live it's normal lifespan with no immunity as immunity is an integral part of a living animal.

If people have a parasite infected fish they can cure it in a day or two if they use copper and a diatom filter. If they can get quinicrine hydrocloride or a similar malaria drug and mix it with copper, the fish will be free of parasites in a day or two.

But if you run a natural system with a full compliment of pathogens and feed correctly with some live foods, some clams and no dry foods and have a tank full of caves and hiding places where you can't see the fish and the tank has some growth on it. They shouldn't have any problems.

Sometimes I feel the whole quarantine thing is more of a way to sell dry goods and pay exorbitant prices for fish with broken immune systems. I always link your article to people because it relieved me of a lot of stress I went through starting out. It just made logical sense.

 

[Paul B]

Fishmonkey it is common sense. If there are some tanks that never quarantine or medicate and they are in existence for years or decades there must be something happening in those tanks.

It's immunity and is the best thing that ever happened to fish and us. Duck billed platypuses also.

It's so simple, much simpler than medicating and quarantining. Just keep the fish in the shape they were in in the sea. No dry foods and plenty of "natural" hiding places.

I cringe when I see some tanks that are supposed to have hiding places. I have some fish I only see maybe once a month and thats just the way I like it and so do the fish. I know those fish will only die of old age.

If you medicate or quarantine for a long time you are severely shortening that fishes lifespan.

I have been asking for decades who has an old, medicated and fully quarantined fish. So far, in 7 or 8 forums and on line, I haven't found even one. Old is if the fish is at it's presumed lifespan.

 

[jasonrusso]

Fishmonkey it is common sense. If there are some tanks that never quarantine or medicate and they are in existence for years or decades there must be something happening in those tanks.

It's immunity and is the best thing that ever happened to fish and us. Duck billed platypuses also.

It's so simple, much simpler than medicating and quarantining. Just keep the fish in the shape they were in in the sea. No dry foods and plenty of "natural" hiding places.

I cringe when I see some tanks that are supposed to have hiding places. I have some fish I only see maybe once a month and thats just the way I like it and so do the fish. I know those fish will only die of old age.

If you medicate or quarantine for a long time you are severely shortening that fishes lifespan.

I have been asking for decades who has an old, medicated and fully quarantined fish. So far, in 7 or 8 forums and on line, I haven't found even one. Old is if the fish is at it's presumed lifespan.

I had a firefish that went through CP and died recently. I had him for 4.5 years, so he was at least that old.

I really want to do things your way, but I don't know how to start now that all my fish have been quarantined.

One thing that I don't understand, if there are people that have never quarantined (like most beginners), then why do they suddenly have outbreaks? Shouldn't their systems be infected? Especially if they come from Petco.

 

[theMeat]

I had a firefish that went through CP and died recently. I had him for 4.5 years, so he was at least that old.

I really want to do things your way, but I don't know how to start now that all my fish have been quarantined.

One thing that I don't understand, if there are people that have never quarantined (like most beginners), then why do they suddenly have outbreaks? Shouldn't their systems be infected? Especially if they come from Petco.

An established tank, low stress, and imo especially diet all have their role

 

[HuduVudu]

I had a firefish that went through CP and died recently. I had him for 4.5 years, so he was at least that old.

I really want to do things your way, but I don't know how to start now that all my fish have been quarantined.

One thing that I don't understand, if there are people that have never quarantined (like most beginners), then why do they suddenly have outbreaks? Shouldn't their systems be infected? Especially if they come from Petco.

IME the biggest problem is stocking. Tanks have a "limit". When that limit gets pushed for whatever reason the fish will start to stress. New people have a hard time seeing the stress. By the time they see the effects it is too late.

Most new people understand that too many fish can be a problem. The are careful at first. They may lose some fish but it doesn't wipe out their tank. They chalk it up where the fish were bought. This isn't far from the truth. Then they get some sucess and the desire for more kicks in. This is when the wipe out comes. When a fish crosses the threshhold their chances of coming back are vanishingly small. The aquarist will attribute the wipe out to the symptoms that they saw not the underlying cause.

Then they get the "gospel" of QT. This once again follows the same sort of pattern.

The end result is blow out of the hobbyist.

It takes a lot of time and a lot of mind bending to understand the real issues that are behind a salt water aquarium. Sadly the waters are muddied because the ideas that work are VERY counter-intuitive. It takes years to untangle the web. There are many people that want to be the guru. This to inflate themselves not to truly share information. It is hard to distinguish between these two types of info.

Another issue is time frame. New people think in terms of months. If their tank is doing well for a month then they know everything there is to know. This is common, and dangerous. It takes time LOTS of time to understand. An open mind can really speed this process along but that requires an actual desire to keep the creatures. Unfortunately many people, and trust me this is NOT new, want to show off. I have seen this since the beginning of my fish keeping almost 40 years ago. This keeps the person on track to not learn the hard lessons that they need to learn. This hobby isn't the only place that this occurs.

My 2 cents

 

[fishmonkey]

I had a firefish that went through CP and died recently. I had him for 4.5 years, so he was at least that old.

I really want to do things your way, but I don't know how to start now that all my fish have been quarantined.

One thing that I don't understand, if there are people that have never quarantined (like most beginners), then why do they suddenly have outbreaks? Shouldn't their systems be infected? Especially if they come from Petco.

Diet and hiding spaces are easy ways to start. Live white worms are not that hard to culture. LRS is good too and there are videos on how to make your own fish food. When I use those frozen cubes of mysis I use selcon.

 

[jasonrusso]

Diet and hiding spaces are easy ways to start. Live white worms are not that hard to culture. LRS is good too and there are videos on how to make your own fish food. When I use those frozen cubes of mysis I use selcon.

I feed LRS and clams/cockles every day.

I did the white worm thing for a while and the ONLY fish that had any interest were my clowns. It wasn't worth the effort.

 

[fishmonkey]

I feed LRS and clams/cockles every day.

I did the white worm thing for a while and the ONLY fish that had any interest were my clowns. It wasn't worth the effort.

thats funny all my fish love it. they will literally gorge on it

 

[Paul B]

When I use those frozen cubes of mysis I use selcon.

If you feed some whiteworms and frozen foods there is no need to use Selcon although it won't hurt.

BTW Selcon won't stick to worms or frozen food, only dry food so if you put it in something wet, it just washes off and gets lost.

 

[Duncan62]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

My feelings exactly. Healthy fish can survive most things.

 

[fishmonkey]

If you feed some whiteworms and frozen foods there is no need to use Selcon although it won't hurt.

BTW Selcon won't stick to worms or frozen food, only dry food so if you put it in something wet, it just washes off and gets lost.

good to know i thought it soaked up with the frozen cubes for some reason

 

[Paul B]

I really want to do things your way, but I don't know how to start now that all my fish have been quarantined.

Jason, first of all, you have to shave your head.

If your tank is fully quarantined you can of course keep it like that if you like and many people run tanks like that. It isn't easy to get a quarantined tank to a natural tank and I never did one.

I think you should just feed live food like worms at least a few times a week. It doesn't have to be every day and shouldn't be their entire meal. Don't use any dry foods, not even "Quality pellets".

But you can if you are going away and someone is watching your tank. I doubt your fish will eat it if they have been eating real food but all fish are different and some pellets certainly won't hurt them.

IMO clams are the best all around food but not from an LFS which may have been irradiated to kill microorganisms and frozen during the last Ice Age. If you can get fresh or freshly frozen clams, thats best, by far.

Your fish should get very healthy and start to fill with eggs.

Hiding places need to be natural looking and tight so the fish feels secure. They really need to be out of your sight and they can see you just as you can see them.

They also may not like what you are watching on TV so watch a lot of National Geographic but not where the penguins are eating fish. Fish hate that.

Don't clean the substrate to much, leave a little mulm or detritus and don't clean the back glass. Let grow anything that wants to grow.

Never add chemicals. You shouldn't need bacteria in a bottle, Vibrant, Roaphas, Chemi Clean etc.

Just seawater and the correct food.

Good Luck
Paul