The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

jasonrusso

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You can freeze them for a very long time, but like anything frozen, the benefits start to wane as soon as you freeze them. I think 6 months would be fine but I am guessing.
Thanks. I don't want to kill all the beneficial guts by freezing. I know freezing kills vitamin b.

My observation is that not all vitamins wash off right away. If I let vitachem soak in for a few minutes the clams still look yellow in the water. Something is sticking in there.
 

salty joe

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I freeze live whole clams as well as mussels and oysters. My fish are crazy for all three.

I agree that feeding whole food is critical to the fishes wellbeing, I also think it's fine to supplement with high quality pellets or flake.
 

MnFish1

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How long do you think I can freeze clams for before the benefits start to diminish?

I feed frozen clams daily, usually cockles (low thimanese) when I can get them.
I would ask the people that sell frozen clams. LRS. Since there is no documented benefit - except for 1 tank. I wonder why you're asking the question
 

MnFish1

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Thanks. I don't want to kill all the beneficial guts by freezing. I know freezing kills vitamin b.

My observation is that not all vitamins wash off right away. If I let vitachem soak in for a few minutes the clams still look yellow in the water. Something is sticking in there.
There is no benefit - that there are 'beneficial guts'. Go ahead - lots of people use flake and frozen food
 

jasonrusso

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I would ask the people that sell frozen clams. LRS. Since there is no documented benefit - except for 1 tank. I wonder why you're asking the question

There is no benefit - that there are 'beneficial guts'. Go ahead - lots of people use flake and frozen food
I don't understand your point (as usual). Are you saying that there are no benefits to live/fresh food? There is no benefit to whole belly vs clam strips? Cleaned shrimp vs head on shrimp is the same nutrition?

If this is your point, I flat out disagree with you. You can't honestly believe that if you cut a silverslide in half, the tail has as much nutrition as the head/abdomen. Is this what you believe?

Do you also believe that freezing doesn't kill bacteria and vitamins? If so, that goes against pretty much every study ever done.

I wonder why you would answer in this way.
 

MnFish1

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I don't understand your point (as usual). Are you saying that there are no benefits to live/fresh food? There is no benefit to whole belly vs clam strips? Cleaned shrimp vs head on shrimp is the same nutrition?

If this is your point, I flat out disagree with you. You can't honestly believe that if you cut a silverslide in half, the tail has as much nutrition as the head/abdomen. Is this what you believe?

Do you also believe that freezing doesn't kill bacteria and vitamins? If so, that goes against pretty much every study ever done.

I wonder why you would answer in this way.
Actually, as a microbiologist - I have frozen bacteria multiple times. For one. In fact it's thawing and re-freezing bacteria that kills them.

And yes - as usual - you did misunderstand my point. My point was that there is no magic to Clam xxx vs frozen clam xxx. As to head on vs head off shrimp - I have no way to say one way or the other - however, I would say - that most of the head of the shrimp is undigestible - and therefore - any 'benefit' is minimal. That said - if you're worried about fish and invert 'parts' in a fish food - I would much more use LR than a product from the grocery store - or feeding a pacific biotope an Atlantic shrimp (with or without head).

The reason I answered in that way is because I disagree with the underlying premise. There is no evidence that feeding clam 'guts' is better than feeding a flake or pellet food. In fact there are several articles suggesting that hobbyist diets are lacking in potentially one - or multiple vitamins/minerals.
 

jasonrusso

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As to head on vs head off shrimp - I have no way to say one way or the other - however, I would say - that most of the head of the shrimp is undigestible - and therefore - any 'benefit' is minimal.
You feel that there is no benefit between consuming all the guts in the shrimp, and only the muscle in the tail? The tail has little to no nutrition. All the nutrition is in the head/guts.

If you can't agree with that, I don't know what else to say
 
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Paul B

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If you can't agree with that, I don't know what else to say


I also have nothing to say. And I am an electrician. But a really good electrician. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Being this is my thread and if you want to go by my method of no quarantine, the premise is that the bacteria in the gut controls the vast majority of the immunity in us and fish. Pellets and other dry food has no gut bacteria as it is baked and probably has preservatives in it which may not be good for anything except the manufacturer of the stuff.

But if you want to follow what anyone else prescribes, then do that. But that won't be my method of immunity.
 

MnFish1

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You feel that there is no benefit between consuming all the guts in the shrimp, and only the muscle in the tail? The tail has little to no nutrition. All the nutrition is in the head/guts.

If you can't agree with that, I don't know what else to say
I did not say that. Nothing like that. IF one wants to take home seafood from the store (or the shore) - it makes the most sense to grind it all up. If you have some evidence to show that the tail of shrimp has no nutritional value (note I do not mean the 1/4 inch tail) - go ahead let me know.
 

MnFish1

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I also have nothing to say. And I am an electrician. But a really good electrician. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Being this is my thread and if you want to go by my method of no quarantine, the premise is that the bacteria in the gut controls the vast majority of the immunity in us and fish. Pellets and other dry food has no gut bacteria as it is baked and probably has preservatives in it which may not be good for anything except the manufacturer of the stuff.

But if you want to follow what anyone else prescribes, then do that. But that won't be my method of immunity.
I will cautiously agree - You started the thread, IMHO with all deference - it's not 'your' thread. The point of these boards is discussion of ideas - I thought. In fact - when I first came to R2R - I was on your side of the fence - that QT was 1. Too Hard, 2. Too many people made mistakes 3. It was toxic. However - Now I somewhat disagree - from the standpoint that I have never quarantined a fish. BUT - I buy safe fish - that I know ( have watched for a couple weeks, or who's store has quarantined them)
 

MnFish1

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You feel that there is no benefit between consuming all the guts in the shrimp, and only the muscle in the tail? The tail has little to no nutrition. All the nutrition is in the head/guts.

If you can't agree with that, I don't know what else to say
Let's define "guts". For example if you went to a restaurant, you would not say I want to eat the muscle in the tail, So - you're a little unclear. There is a lot of meat in the shrimp thorax and abdomen - not to mention other parts - so I'm not sure what you're getting at
 

jasonrusso

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Let's define "guts". For example if you went to a restaurant, you would not say I want to eat the muscle in the tail, So - you're a little unclear. There is a lot of meat in the shrimp thorax and abdomen - not to mention other parts - so I'm not sure what you're getting at
You know exactly what I mean, but you like to argue. There is little to no nutrition in cocktail shrimp that you buy at the grocery store.

I have an Asian market by me that sell whole shrimp, not cleaned. Those are much more nutritious.
 
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MnFish1

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You know exactly what I mean, but you like to argue. There is little to no nutrition in cocktail shrimp that you buy at the grocery store. C

I have an Asian market by me that sell whole shrimp, not cleaned. Those are much more nutritious.
OK - so you said several things I did not. Keep it real!
 

EliMelly

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Well my black worms came today, going to try to do a small culture in a plastic container with a sponge. Any advice from someone who has done this?
 

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Paul B

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Wow the fish love them!!!
You had doubts! :D

Worms are almost all guts with an intestine that runs all through the worm and that intestine is loaded with gut bacteria. I know it's a fresh water creature and not very cute but for some reason that bacteria in worms is like a magic elixir when it comes to immunity.

I realized that in about 1972 when I started to feed them to my blue devils which in about 7 weeks started to spawn and seemingly became immune to just about all communicable diseases.

Being an electrician I had no idea at the time, why. Now I know. It is the biggest secret in this hobby but the majority of hobbiests don't, or won't accept that and prefer instead to keep fish alive using medications. That also works, for a while. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes:

Here is that very blue devil over his nest of eggs in that barnacle shell.



And his eggs.


Raising blue devils is no big Whoop, but in 1972 no one even heard of a blue devil much less could keep them alive. But the worms knew. :cool:
 

A worm with high fashion and practical utility: Have you ever kept feather dusters in your reef aquarium?

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