The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[atoll]

Atoll, this is a story that will always spawn arguments. But many of us old timers with old healthy fish seem to know how to do this and I doubt we are smarter than anyone else here.

Just lucky I guess.

Harrr yes when all else fails it's just good luck of course. We are both the luckiest reefers in the world.

 

[WVNed]

Perhaps you aren’t using the correct spells on your tank or lighting the appropriate number of candles

 

[atoll]

Perhaps you aren’t using the correct spells on your tank or lighting the appropriate number of candles

Candles must be black and you have to wear a black hood and recite various spells while holding the reefers bible.

 

[Lasse]

@Paul B and @atoll I am with you

That´s three oldtimers in three different countries with three different backgrounds that´s have the same experiences We are all the luckiest guys in the world - it is only our luck that have our aquariums to work.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

You will never sterilize a tank!! There will still be bacterial pathogens in The water and the fish’s immune system should be able to fight that off.

And copper is a known immune depressor.......

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

That´s three oldtimers in three different countries with three different backgrounds that´s have the same experiences We are all the luckiest guys in the world - it is only our luck that have our aquariums to work.

True, and people keep saying it is not repeatable. It isn't repeatable if you do it wrong.

I can parachute out of a plane, but if I pack that parachute wrong, I can only do it once so it will not be repeatable.

 

[ReefLab]

And copper is a known immune depressor.......

Sincerely Lasse

just because its immune system is suppressed during copper treatment does not necessarily open the fish up to opportunistic pathogens. It is not a long term impact on the immune system like an antibiotic treatment. Copper is selectively toxic for protists not bacteria.

again, compare it to a human community. If you had giardia contaminating the water, you wouldn’t allow it to continue to infect people because you rely on their immune systems. You would eradicate the protist from the water and the people!
On the other hand, if one person had a virulent S. aureus infection, you would only treat that person and prevent the spread.
It’s about treating protozoan pathogens vs bacterial.

there’s just no reason not to treat with copper.

 

[Paul B]

Copper is selectively toxic for protists not bacteria.

Copper also kills bacteria which is one reason it is used on some hospital door knobs.

Here is a quote from this article:

Quote:
"Today, we have insight into why a person handling copper day in and day out would have protection from a bacterial threat: Copper is antimicrobial. It kills bacteria and viruses, sometimes within minutes. In the 19th century, exposure to copper would have been an early version of constantly sanitizing one's hands. "

You can read the article here. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...s-viruses-and-bacteria-why-isnt-it-everywhere

And here: https://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-...d-killing-super-bugs-and-regular-bacteria-too

Quote:
Why copper is so good at killing superbugs (and regular bacteria, too)

Here: https://www.designboom.com/design/c...-arent-our-surfaces-covered-in-it-03-18-2020/

copper — a material with the power to kill bacteria and viruses in their tracks — has long been exploited for its health benefits.

And almost anywhere.

 

[Paul B]

There is a reason I personally don't use copper. I don't need it because of the constant presence of parasites, and presumed bacterial pathogens, my fish, and Atoll's and Lasse, fish are immune, like totally immune which is why our fish never get sick and probably never will. We have been doing this a long time and have learned many years ago how to get and keep our fish healthy enough to never have to worry about that.

To us it is easy, much easier than quarantining and medication. You buy a fish, throw it in a natural tank, feed it correctly and forget about it.

 

[ReefLab]

Copper also kills bacteria which is one reason it is used on some hospital door knobs.

Here is a quote from this article:

Quote:
"Today, we have insight into why a person handling copper day in and day out would have protection from a bacterial threat: Copper is antimicrobial. It kills bacteria and viruses, sometimes within minutes. In the 19th century, exposure to copper would have been an early version of constantly sanitizing one's hands. "

You can read the article here. https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...s-viruses-and-bacteria-why-isnt-it-everywhere

And here: https://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-...d-killing-super-bugs-and-regular-bacteria-too

Quote:
Why copper is so good at killing superbugs (and regular bacteria, too)

Here: https://www.designboom.com/design/c...-arent-our-surfaces-covered-in-it-03-18-2020/

copper — a material with the power to kill bacteria and viruses in their tracks — has long been exploited for its health benefits.

And almost anywhere.

This is taken out of context. The article refers to copper surfaces. That is irrelevant.

furthermore the article I pasted below shows the toxicity of copper to be above 1,000ppm. Again, high selective toxicity (above 400!)

Contact Killing of Bacteria on Copper Is Suppressed if Bacterial-Metal Contact Is Prevented and Is Induced on Iron by Copper Ions

Bacteria are rapidly killed on copper surfaces, and copper ions released from the surface have been proposed to play a major role in the killing process. However, it has remained unclear whether contact of the bacteria with the copper surface is also ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Skud1]

I have also been in and out of this hobby over last 20 years and maybe one or two fish to a disease. Lost more to stupidity on my part. Start smart, feed smart. Herd immunity. Works for everyone.

 

[ReefLab]

There is a reason I personally don't use copper. I don't need it because of the constant presence of parasites, and presumed bacterial pathogens, my fish, and Atoll's and Lasse, fish are immune, like totally immune which is why our fish never get sick and probably never will. We have been doing this a long time and have learned many years ago how to get and keep our fish healthy enough to never have to worry about that.

To us it is easy, much easier than quarantining and medication. You buy a fish, throw it in a natural tank, feed it correctly and forget about it.

Of course it’s easier and if that’s why you do it, more power to you. However, the efficacy of prophylactic copper treatment should not be diminished.

 

[Paul B]

This is taken out of context.

OK, then quarantine.

the efficacy of prophylactic copper treatment should not be diminished.

I agree with you. Copper works great at killing parasites. I used to use it constantly as I started this before liquid copper was even regularly sold and I used copper pennies.

My point is that "I DON'T WANT TO KILL, bacteria fungus or anything else". Not prophylacticly or any other way.
That is called a quarantine tank and not what I want.

To have immune fish you need those things in the water just like they are in the sea. It's a simple and natural concept.
If you want to kill all those organisms, then you need to quarantine and possibly medicate because those things will kill your fish in that tank.

If a fish is never exposed to parasites, it's immunity will eventually disappear so you will always have to quarantine.
I have been writing this for decades and even wrote a book. But this thread is about "the other way to run a reef tank".
Not which way is better.

So if you want to quarantine everything, go with that method.

My fish along with Lasse and Atoll's fish will be fine because we keep them immune. Maybe if I keep saying it, it will be understood.

I keep asking, how many old quarantined tanks do you know of where the fish never get sick and only die of old age?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

I feel monitoring long term success QT and non-QT would be a very interesting article. Only issue is there are so many ways to QT and with varying medications and concentrations, would be difficult to get an accurate sample size. Good to see so many people have been successful for decades. Our fish definitely have long life spans, to find the most effective way to maintain that is the goal for most of us, regardless of what side you all on.

 

[Paul B]

I don't think there is a side. Do what is best for you and what you like and want to do. This is a Hobby and the definition I am sure is to have fun. If quarantining is fun for you, do that. I know a lot of people like medicating, quarantining, using gadgets, electronics etc. Whatever makes you happy, do that.

If it's not fun, take it all to the dumpster, and throw it out. It's not that important.

But this thread is not about which way is best.

 

[atoll]

Before I took mother natures advice we did have a long conversation together with me asking the questions and she giving me all the answers, my fish would often get the dreaded white spot.

Once I understood what she was clearly trying to tell me, I did as much as I could to implement her advice.
I changed my copper stained tank for a new one and did just about all I do now and have done for the best part of around 30 years.

Coincidentally of course, my fish stopped getting white spot although I have seen it on one or 2 newly introduced fish like Royal grammas. However, in.no time the fish would be cured, halleluja and praise be.

White spot here in the UK was and probably still is, the bain of many reefers from what I read followed by the other usual disease suspects. Many fish dying in QT and often getting reinfected following QT.

Unlike Paul and due to various circumstances, I have had a further 8 tanks in about 18 years. Each time I have set a new tank up I have set it up the same way with the same philosophy to reefkeeping.

Am just a simple carpenter come building projects manager who retired or tried to retire 12 years ago. I have no scientific background of note so forgive me if I don't engage in taking about medications as I know little of them which is at least partly due to not having used any for over 30 years.

So, I have a question to those who firmly believe in QT, medication, witchcraft, voodoo or divine intervention. Why don't my fish get sick esp as I buy from many different LFS some with a less than perfect reputation shall we say? If it's not immunity or luck then just what is it as I have only ever met with silence when I ask such a question. I am open to all reasonable suggestions.

 

[Lasse]

Copper is also a compound known to bioaccumulate in fish. For me copper and fish - a big no - no especially that other methods for parasites like white spot - not included chemical - is more safety and more effective in treatment.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Halal Hotdog]

I don't think there is a side. Do what is best for you and what you like and want to do. This is a Hobby and the definition I am sure is to have fun. If quarantining is fun for you, do that. I know a lot of people like medicating, quarantining, using gadgets, electronics etc. Whatever makes you happy, do that.

If it's not fun, take it all to the dumpster, and throw it out. It's not that important.

But this thread is not about which way is best.

I agree with you that this is a hobby and one of the goals is enjoyment, but when living creatures are involved, I wouldn't say fun is the only goal. I QT not because I enjoy it, I actually hate doing it and it is a tremendous amount of work. The reason I QT is because I feel it is best practice. I am in healthcare and just watching pathology goes against my grain. You may disagree, and that is fine. Good to see fish succeed in a multitude of environments. If it works for you then by no means change it.

 

[Mortie31]

I agree with you that this is a hobby and one of the goals is enjoyment, but when living creatures are involved, I wouldn't say fun is the only goal. I QT not because I enjoy it, I actually hate doing it and it is a tremendous amount of work. The reason I QT is because I feel it is best practice. I am in healthcare and just watching pathology goes against my grain. You may disagree, and that is fine. Good to see fish succeed in a multitude of environments. If it works for you then by no means change it.

It’s good that at face value there are different ways of achieving the same goal, as you say you quarantine and it works for you and that it goes against the grain for you to not do so as you work in healthcare, in that case I’m sure you see first hand the side effects of medications in humans and exactly the same happens medicating fish. To treat an ill fish with medication is one thing and to have to accept the side effects and long term health risks to it can be acceptable, but to quarantine and medicate healthy fish ”just in case it may be Ill or carrying something we can’t see” is a totally different situation.
Are these medicated fish ever truly healthy again? Is there immune system fully functioning? Do they spawn and live long lives? Can you show us the answers to these questions?

 

[Halal Hotdog]

It’s good that at face value there are different ways of achieving the same goal, as you say you quarantine and it works for you and that it goes against the grain for you to not do so as you work in healthcare, in that case I’m sure you see first hand the side effects of medications in humans and exactly the same happens medicating fish. To treat an ill fish with medication is one thing and to have to accept the side effects and long term health risks to it can be acceptable, but to quarantine and medicate healthy fish ”just in case it may be Ill or carrying something we can’t see” is a totally different situation.
Are these medicated fish ever truly healthy again? Is there immune system fully functioning? Do they spawn and live long lives? Can you show us the answers to these questions?

I understand your concern, and medicating fish correctly is not easy. Most current guidelines are based on anecdotal evidence. To assume medicated fish are unhealthy or have a compromised immune system is incorrect. I do not know of any long term side effects with medicating marine fish with cholorquine phosphate, which is what I use.

One study showed 80% of ornamental fish have internal parasites, so we are not treating completely healthy fish, we are treating diseased fish. To my knowledge I don't beleive there are any long term detrimental effects of using praziuantel, which directly treats internal parasites.

To assume the entire biology of the fish is changed by any and all medications would not take a marine biologist to dispel.