The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

MnFish1

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I personally don't think a quarantined tank could be healthy because that type of tank needs to be "quarantined" from all pathogens forever. That means no fresh or live food.
Fish were designed to eat nothing but fresh or live food so right away we have to eliminate that.

Does it sound natural to anyone that the food the fish was living on since birth and the food the fish was designed to eat can no longer be fed?

Female fish are also always pregnant and it is impossible to find a female fish in the sea which is not pregnant. How many fish in quarantined tanks lay eggs? I don't know but I would like to.
Agree with 95 percent of your comments in the last post. I would answer these a little differently:

1. I do not think most people with a QT's tank limit feeding to no fresh or live food. For example - I have seen many people who have quarantined their tanks feeding for example 'LRS'. I'm not sure (maybe you can explain) - how freezing live food (which I believe you do) - would be forbidden in a QT tank. I agree with you that some fresh/frozen food is beneficial to fish.
2. There are lots of pets who in the wild would live on raw meat, yet we feed them pet food. Though there is a movement out there to feed cats, dogs, etc a raw-type diet - there is not a lot of evidence that there are consistent health benefits.
3. For some time - I only fed flake food - and my fish had been QT'd (at the LFS) - they laid aggs all the time. I have a blue lined dotty back (a female - no male) that occasionally lays eggs. Once the food goes into the 'gut' - it seems to me (and of course I might be wrong) - that all of the 'stuff' is broken down into fat, protein and carbohydrates. One benefit of fresh/frozen foods is I believe the omega fatty acids is probably higher (at least depending on the quality of the dry food) than many dry foods. My opinion - no matter what you feed - a variety is important.
 

HuduVudu

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and probably the same guy in the canoe collected them both. :rolleyes:
No Paul they are called bankas, and here he is ready to collect fish. :p

Bankas on the beach.jpg
 

HuduVudu

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Do you think its possible that the reason there are so many questions on the disease forum is because people have NOT been quarantining (or following stress-reducing techniques)? Most of the posts I read are 'help my fish have xxxxxx' what should I do. This is usually followed by a question from someone 'did you QT?' - answer 'No'.
You're 100% right here.

Not sure 'why you cant help' and not sure 'who is ripping anyone apart'.
And trying to educate after your first observation leads to the part I was describing which you commented on.

For me one of the important things that you MUST do if you have a newer tank and you are not quarantining is that you must ensure MASSIVE oxygen levels. This IME ensures that the fish can still breathe through all of the crap that are attacking it's gills. A solidly oxygenated blood supply for the fish helps two things, digestive repair which gets wiped out by the meds and a solid immune response from the fish. It is also important to have solid biodiversity, that in and of itself will correct the problem but most people that are having problems have new tanks and biodiversity is some class the smart people take in college. The gas exchange issue can be implemented quickly and will help immensely. I also suggest the biodiversity to get them on the right path.

Any mention of this type of solution in the posts described in your first quote leads to a mob of self righteous newbs telling you that you have no idea what you are doing that you are smug and arrogant and that you are killing every fish in the hobby. I have seen this backlash happen to many people on this thread, and I am sure it has happened to you. Any way other than full QT of everything that goes in the tank, full spectrum antibiotics, Copper and as Paul likes to say brillo pads is unacceptable and stupid and wrong, and you will be told this in so many ways that after a while it just gets to be like what's the point.

This is why people that don't advocate QT get a bit cantankerous when it comes to discussions of QT.

still don't get the relevance of the statement that there aren't any 40+ year old QT tanks?
The underlying point is the one I made earlier ... they are fragile.
 
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Paul B

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No Paul they are called bankas, and here he is ready to collect fish. :p
Looks like a canoe to me. :cool:

You should not feed live food to a quarantined fish because if that food has a parasite, as all saltwater fresh foods like clams would, those fish would get infected and would have to be medicated or they would die. Clams are filter feeders and would be full of parasites. Worms would be much safer because salt water parasites would not live in them that I know of.

I feed live worms for the bacteria and know from experience that for some reason, they "force" fish to be healthy and spawn.
LRS food like all commercial food would not contain living parasites. I don't think he irridiates his food but even so, it is deep frozen and has a shelf life longer than human food. But remember I want living bacteria and parasites. As I have said millions of times, fish will never be immune if they are not exposed to diseases and fresh clams will help with that as will not quarantining or medicating.
 
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Paul B

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People whose fish die because they didn't quarantine are not following my method or they are Noobs. Throwing fish in a tank with none of the other things advocated will kill your fish.
 

gesock

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I'm so glad to realize I'm not the only one who doesn't QT. I always have introduced the new fish and watched to see how it, and the other fish, interacted. I think my biggest problem is not researching a fish before I buy it and then see some negative results. I'm talking to you green brittle star!
 
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Paul B

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Thats why my fish try not to swallow salt water. :rolleyes:
 

MnFish1

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People whose fish die because they didn't quarantine are not following my method or they are Noobs. Throwing fish in a tank with none of the other things advocated will kill your fish.
I guess I would suggest that calling people noobs isn't really that helpful - right? Like I've said a million times - if you buy a fish at an LFS - as of minute 1 - when they are plopped in a new tank - they have not been exposed to 'your method'. And my thought on this is that 1) alot fish that are 'dropped into a tank' that are going to survive - will survive no matter what (after all as we've seen time after time - fish recover from CI without treatment - they also die). So it remains questionable (to me at least) - how it can be suggested that a 'method' can restore immunity, etc in a fish in one week (many people on the disease forum you described - literally are stating 'I added this fish 3 days ago its dying' - and now the rest of my tank looks sick too. I also do not believe that CI or velvet can live inside clam tissue for a number of reasons (mainly - they are being digested - not just sitting there). Correct me if I'm wrong - I have thought I've heard you said 'I have tossed fish covered in parasites into my tank' and they did fine. I cant think of anything (in my thick head) that could be in your tank from the moment a fish is dropped in - expect something that will filter out/kill parasites as they drop off the fish and prevent re-infection. One thing I've noticed - is low stocking density as compared to high stocking/overcrowding - seems to be important. Also certain fish are much less susceptible to CI/velvet. In reality - if you believe the polls on this site - MOST people do no quarantine at all, and many do only observation quartantine (whether in an LFS or their own separate tank). So - as someone else said - my reading of the information here - is that not QTing is 'the way most people run a reef tank - and they do it without seawater, clams, etc. But again - as always maybe I'm wrong.
 

MnFish1

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You're 100% right here.


And trying to educate after your first observation leads to the part I was describing which you commented on.

For me one of the important things that you MUST do if you have a newer tank and you are not quarantining is that you must ensure MASSIVE oxygen levels. This IME ensures that the fish can still breathe through all of the crap that are attacking it's gills. A solidly oxygenated blood supply for the fish helps two things, digestive repair which gets wiped out by the meds and a solid immune response from the fish. It is also important to have solid biodiversity, that in and of itself will correct the problem but most people that are having problems have new tanks and biodiversity is some class the smart people take in college. The gas exchange issue can be implemented quickly and will help immensely. I also suggest the biodiversity to get them on the right path.

Any mention of this type of solution in the posts described in your first quote leads to a mob of self righteous newbs telling you that you have no idea what you are doing that you are smug and arrogant and that you are killing every fish in the hobby. I have seen this backlash happen to many people on this thread, and I am sure it has happened to you. Any way other than full QT of everything that goes in the tank, full spectrum antibiotics, Copper and as Paul likes to say brillo pads is unacceptable and stupid and wrong, and you will be told this in so many ways that after a while it just gets to be like what's the point.

This is why people that don't advocate QT get a bit cantankerous when it comes to discussions of QT.


The underlying point is the one I made earlier ... they are fragile.
I don't disagree with anything except the last sentence. IMHO - people on both sides of this issue (QT, no QT) are a bit cantankerous lol. In all of these discussions - (to me) its important to define what you're talking about. Full QT for 2-4 weeks with Peroxide TTM as recommended by Humblefish, 500 antibiotics, copper, etc for 4 weeks, observation alone, etc etc etc. Some versions of 'QT' are quite innocuous - and can be used to 'beef up' the fish - whether its with live food or other methods. To me - that makes the fish stronger, not weaker. Thus my disagreement (in part) with your comment that 'QT fish are fragile' (paraphrased). PS - I agree 100 percent with those suggesting that using prophylactic medications of any type unless in expert hands - is probably doing more harm than good. I hope that going forward - the solution to this 'debate' will be LFS and suppliers will perform QT (correctly, properly, safely) - which will mean individuals do not need to go through the issues on their own.
 

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when they are plopped in a new tank - they have not been exposed to 'your method'.
Or any method that is the point. There is no plan there is only hope, optimistically, or ignorance pessimistically.

So it remains questionable (to me at least) - how it can be suggested that a 'method' can restore immunity, etc in a fish in one week (many people on the disease forum you described - literally are stating 'I added this fish 3 days ago its dying'
The problem is that new-b or noobs or new to the hobby or just recently started in the hobby, are not adept at determining that their fish are in distress or stressed etc ... They are blissfully ignorant so when the fish drops dead after a long, three day or longer if you count the journey, time it seems like to the new person that it died for no reason.

and now the rest of my tank looks sick too.
Gently try to point out that the rest of the tank is under the same conditions that the fish just died and see how that goes over. Usually it comes with something like ... but all of the other fish have been alive for 300 years and they were doing just fine. Those are the nice responses. The problem is that you don't know what you don't know.

One thing I've noticed - is low stocking density as compared to high stocking/overcrowding - seems to be important.
Absolutely! And the new fish is usually the straw that breaks the camels back. The disease gets blamed but I often point out that living chronically deficient in oxygen is going to lead to disease. New people often can't make this mental leap.

So - as someone else said - my reading of the information here - is that not QTing is 'the way most people run a reef tank - and they do it without seawater, clams, etc.
So we are back to the question were are the long term tanks? Where are the success'? Why is QT the go to every time someone has a problem with disease?

I am honestly confused by the orthodoxy.

This isn't really once again about QT or no QT it is about sterility vs. biodiversity. Not QT'ing isn't about devil may care, it is about setting up conditions for success. Most people don't know what those conditions are and a method is simple a way of setting up conditions that favor a successful outcome, in this case healthy breeding fish. Unfortunately a tank set up for success looks the same to a new person as one that isn't.
 

HuduVudu

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the solution to this 'debate' will be LFS and suppliers will perform QT (correctly, properly, safely) - which will mean individuals do not need to go through the issues on their own.
Any solution that is outside of the hands of the individual aquarist is NEVER going to work. Solutions must come from individuals. I have "solved" the ich problem. Perhaps I might extend that solution to a vendor and buy what I would have done myself, but once again I have to understand and implement before I can pass off the responsibility to someone else.

I have seen great advances in this hobby and I am glad for the things I can purchase now, but I have experience and with that experience comes discernment. Unfortunately there is no shortcut to this, as much as people want there to be.

Which comes back to why you doing this?

It's the journey Neo.
 

MnFish1

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So we are back to the question were are the long term tanks? Where are the success'? Why is QT the go to every time someone has a problem with disease?
I don't disagree with much of anything you posted the last couple posts. Some was a little unclear because you were using the word 'you' when you might have wanted to say 'one' or 'someone' - because most of the stuff where you said 'you' I don't do and didn't say. In any case. Yes - we are back to where are the long-term tanks. Where are the millions of long term tanks using QT, where are the millions of tanks not using QT (older than 49 years). The answer - there are very very few - for a lot of reasons. I don't QT - so for me its not a question of QT or don't QT. Its whats the best way to manage a non-QT tank (the topic of this thread) - and what is the rationale behind it. Many here keep implying that I (for one) am advocating QT. I'm not. At most I've said - I don't think there is a difference in fish longevity etc based on whether someone QT'd or not. No more no less.
 
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Paul B

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I guess I would suggest that calling people noobs isn't really that helpful - r
Calling people Noobs is nothing against the people as we were all Noobs. But as I keep saying a New tank will never be healthy even if I started it myself so don't get discouraged. New tanks will have algae, cyano, ich, velvet and everything else. It is just the nature of the beast.

So it remains questionable (to me at least) - how it can be suggested that a 'method' can restore immunity, etc in a fish in one week (many people on the disease forum you described -
The fish from the sea already had immunity so we don't have to restore it, just strengthin it and quarantine or medication will do the opposite, I don't want to re hash this for the hundreth time. If you want to quarantine and drug the fish, do that. But if your fish die, don't say you used my method. You didn't.

Correct me if I'm wrong - I have thought I've heard you said 'I have tossed fish covered in parasites into my tank' and they did fine. I cant think of anything (in my thick head) that could be in your tank from the moment a fish is dropped in - expect something that will filter out/kill parasites as they drop off the fish and prevent re-infection. One thing I've noticed - is low stocking density as compared to high stocking/overcrowding - seems to be important.
I don't want to kill or filter out parasites. You know that. I have 25 or 30 fish in my tank so it is not low density.

its important to define what you're talking about. Full QT for 2-4 weeks with Peroxide TTM as recommended by Humblefish, 500 antibiotics, copper, etc for 4 weeks, observation alone, etc etc etc. Some versions of 'QT' are quite innocuous - and can be used to 'beef up' the fish -
This will kill most fish either right away or in a few weeks or months IMO of course.

So we are back to the question were are the long term tanks?
Yes, where are they?

I have proof my method works, where are the quarantined tanks that are healthy? Healthy means never being sick.
Years not months
 

MnFish1

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Calling people Noobs is nothing against the people as we were all Noobs. But as I keep saying a New tank will never be healthy even if I started it myself so don't get discouraged. New tanks will have algae, cyano, ich, velvet and everything else. It is just the nature of the beast.


The fish from the sea already had immunity so we don't have to restore it, just strengthin it and quarantine or medication will do the opposite, I don't want to re hash this for the hundreth time. If you want to quarantine and drug the fish, do that. But if your fish die, don't say you used my method. You didn't.


I don't want to kill or filter out parasites. You know that. I have 25 or 30 fish in my tank so it is not low density.


This will kill most fish either right away or in a few weeks or months IMO of course.


Yes, where are they?

I have proof my method works, where are the quarantined tanks that are healthy? Healthy means never being sick.
Years not months
I have no disagreement with you. The peroxide TTM method is the 'new' QT method some are using. I will repeat it again - becasue it sounds like this is a personal attack. I agree completely - you have proof that your method works 'for you'. What are your - and others here - who have said basically - 'newbs' don't have the experience to see sick fish, etc. To me its the same with either method. I'm trying to figure out how the average Joe - can take this method and put it into play.
 

Jekyl

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I used Paul's method to run my tank. Right down the the RUGF system. Tank is about 2 years old now. When starting I got live rock and substrate from 4 different LFS in my area and added them to the tank. I also always feed live or frozen foods. Up to 8 fish now in my 90 gallon and misc coral and inverts. Nothing has even been quarantined. Bought from at least 5 different stores or vendors. So far I haven't had a single issue. Luck could definitely be a factor. However I went out of my way to create as much diversity as I possible could as far as inhabitants and bacteria go.

Edit: only issues I've ran into so far were aptasia and bubble algae. Both easily managed
 

HuduVudu

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I'm trying to figure out how the average Joe - can take this method and put it into play.
This is the problem. The average Joe isn't stupid, just new. He has to know or believe or trust or something that Paul's method, or any other method for that matter, will work. If he can't see or believe that or his heuristics get in the way it doesn't matter what is said to him he is going to kill fish if he doesn't follow a method that works.

We as humans have heuristics that keep us out of trouble but also leave us blind to things that might work. Gawd I know this from trading stocks. There is a good saying for this problem and it is what I have been eluding to in previous posts. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Some are charlatans. They say things that aren't true to get a new person, for whatever their reasons, to believe that they are providing the truth. It is incumbent nay, imperative for the new person to distinguish between charlatan and sage. No one can do this for them ... NO ONE! All we can do if we want to help is to make sure the horse knows where the water is. If it wants to drink then good, and if it doesn't then good. The new person will ALWAYS be responsible for their hobby, ALWAYS.
 
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Paul B

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Anyone who wants to come and see my system and learn my method is welcome to come. I am on eastern Long Island. No, you can't sleep here and bring your own food, I will supply the liqueur.

If you want NSW it is free. Bring your own buckets. :cool:
 

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Anyone who wants to come and see my system and learn my method is welcome to come. I am on eastern Long Island. No, you can't sleep here and bring your own food, I will supply the liqueur.

If you want NSW it is free. Bring your own buckets. :cool:
Bet if I sweetened the deal with some models a bed would open up quick lol
 

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