The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

MnFish1 · Feb 24, 2021

Paul B said:
Anyone who wants to come and see my system and learn my method is welcome to come. I am on eastern Long Island. No, you can't sleep here and bring your own food, I will supply the liqueur.

If you want NSW it is free. Bring your own buckets.

I'm in lol

. will you put the liquor in buckets too???

MnFish1 · Feb 24, 2021

Paul B said:
Anyone who wants to come and see my system and learn my method is welcome to come. I am on eastern Long Island. No, you can't sleep here and bring your own food, I will supply the liqueur.

If you want NSW it is free. Bring your own buckets.

Actually, all jokes aside - I would be very interested in seeing kind of a 'build thread update' - The whole tank, the lighting, the filtration, a refugium (if any) - I dont have one, etc etc - I'm sure there would be lots of interest in that type of post

HuduVudu · Feb 24, 2021

It seems someone is delinquent on posting on their build thread. ::cough:: @MnFish1 ::cough::

Put up some current pics, stop being lazy.

MnFish1 · Feb 24, 2021

HuduVudu said:
It seems someone is delinquent on posting on their build thread. ::cough:: @MnFish1 ::cough::

Put up some current pics, stop being lazy.

Since its a family friendly site - I won't say what I want to. I have updated my build thread more recently that others here. But since you asked I will post tomorrow...How about yours>. (mine is in my signature). Maybe you didnt realize. I have not seen a recent whole tank shot from a lot of posters here for a while. I guess we're all lazy - including yourself?

ingchr1 · Feb 24, 2021

Without a doubt what Paul has achieved is quite the accomplishment.

There has to be a lot factors that go into being in the hobby for a continuous stretch of 50 years. I had a fish only tank in my teens, don't remember how many years or when/why it got taken down. Then I was in the Navy for nine years. Last couple of years in the Navy I was on shore duty and had a fish only tank again. It got taken down when I left the Navy and moved. That was 20 years ago. Two years ago I finally got back into the hobby. If I stay at it for 50 years, I'll be in my mid-nineties!

Taking a guess, but I would think a majority of people in the hobby do not quarantine already. Are they having more, less or the same success as people who do quarantine?

What is the average age of all tanks in the hobby? How much of an outlier is a 50 year old tank? Or even a tank > 20 years old?

When people do get out the hobby or take breaks, what is the leading reason why? Is it due to fish death from disease/parasites? Or a variety of other reasons?

Of those getting out, are a larger percentage of quarantined or non-quarantined tanks getting shutdown? Or is it an equal amount?

What created a "need" for quarantining to become a part of the hobby in the first place? Was is due to people not having success with their methods of no quarantine? I remember reading articles 25 years ago about quarantining, so it's not something new.

Paul B · Feb 25, 2021

Some of us tried to quarantine when the hobby started but then, there was no salt water meds.
Ich and velvet were called "coral fish disease" , oodinium, or white spot disease. We kept copper in the water constantly but there were no corals.

There was also no frozen fish food so I always made my own and supplemented with earthworms, Daphne, brine shrimp, clams or tiny fish and shrimp I would collect in the sea. I also collected small mud snails and crushed them.

I didn't know anyone else with a salt tank for many years and there was no computers, cell phones or internet.

This picture is probably a couple of weeks old.

MnFish1 · Feb 25, 2021

HuduVudu said:
It seems someone is delinquent on posting on their build thread. ::cough:: @MnFish1 ::cough::

Put up some current pics, stop being lazy.

Here are some pictures - will also add to the build thread. Its early AM here - so sunlight usually is the light for the AM - I took some pictures under 'natural light' - and under LED. RedSea Reefer XL 525 (note - click on the first picture then you can scroll through seeing full size images)

MnFish1 · Feb 25, 2021

Note - I can probably post a better full tank view when the sun is gone - and the lights are fully on - and the fish are out - and the corals extended. I thought the sun-view was interesting. I also think its part of why I'm successful in keeping goniopora. They get about 4 hours of full sun each AM.

MnFish1 · Feb 25, 2021

HUDUVUDU your turn

MnFish1 · Feb 25, 2021

PS - here is an updated version - with lights on. Sorry for the reflection.

HuduVudu · Feb 25, 2021

Ohhh ... ok ... my build thread is up to date, but if we are looking for FTS here are both of my aquariums. My 20 is seven years old. So I have a ways to go to get to fifty.

ingchr1 · Feb 25, 2021

About not feeding live food to quarantined fish, that is live food not fresh food? If I get clams or oysters at the store they are on ice so that would be fresh vice live, correct? Or does it not make a difference, either will place a quarantined fish at risk?

When a fish is quarantined is the thought that all of its immunity to everything is removed and cannot be recovered? The fish is irreversibly damaged?

I would almost think the opposite, that live/fresh food would be most helpful to a fish that was quarantined. Build back/restore any health that might have been reduced/eliminated by the process?

HuduVudu · Feb 25, 2021

ingchr1 said:
When a fish is quarantined is the thought that all of its immunity to everything is removed and cannot be recovered? The fish is irreversibly damaged?

No, the thought is that the fish has taken a ton of damage from the meds and will now have to overcome the stress of all of the moves AND the stress from the meds plus any new stress the aquarist adds.

My thinking which may or may not be what others here think is that the meds trash the fishes digestive tract and the increased level of stress taxes the fishes energy reserves and immune response. This leaves the fish open to predation from parasites that are in the aquarium. The fishes immune system worked just fine before they were pulled from the ocean and put through the meat grinder on the way to our aquariums. I believe our first and foremost priority to the fish is to remove as much stress from them as possible and increase their energy reserves. When this can be accomplished their odds of full recovery are very good. I don't believe that fish are damaged permanently. I think that they were put through a lot of necessary and unnecessary stress before they arrived adding more seems counter-productive.

Paul B · Feb 26, 2021

Why didn't that picture work?

brandon429 · Feb 26, 2021

my pm box is filling up with post cycle questions and bumpy fish

this thread needs to be titled “if your whole reef is taken from the ocean and refreshed weekly by the ocean then you can avoid quarantine“ and right here is where people need practical work done on non quarantine because they don’t live near an ocean

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

when I see 100+ pages work threads I’m expecting there to be more than one works example in the pages.

what if we‘d spent 131 pages showing those posters how to make a dent

imagine being a new aquarist who doesn’t live near the ocean

Something would have to be posted in that forum and worked several pages regarding non quarantine in order for us to learn the method, sticky it, and reproduce it.

Paul B · Feb 26, 2021

Good Morning Brandon. Remember for most of the life of my tank I used ASW. I did start it with NSW because they didn't have ASW then but that water was from the East River near Manhattan and was probably not the best Idea.
Then in maybe 1975 or so I could get "Instant Ocean" so that is what I normally used until 3 years ago when I moved closer to the sea.

In those years I did collect some natural water if I could, but that was rare.
I did however, once or twice a year go to a muddy bay and collect some mud and amphipods if I could get them.

I think that would only help improve the biodiversity in my undergravel filter and don't know if it had anything to do with immunity but I am guessing. Maybe thats the secret.

I do know from my experiences, researching this and speaking to the few doctors and my friend a neurologist I am friends with that every living creature, including bacteria have an immune system and that system works only if it is exposed to a pathogen, so for me anyway, common sense tells me that all creatures, including us and fish need to be exposed almost constantly or we lose that immunity.

I also think it would be close to impossible to keep something healthy, even artificially if their immunity was weak or non existent.

I got my Covid shots and I am sure all of us will have to get it yearly or that immunity will fade.

Also what I posted somewhere on here, if we kill the bacteria, the parasites will get stronger because bacteria kills them too. If we kill the parasites, the bacteria and viruses will be out of sync and can attack each other, then maybe funguses can take over. But I am an electrician, not a researcher or the God of fish.

MnFish1 · Feb 26, 2021

brandon429 said:
my pm box is filling up with post cycle questions and bumpy fish

this thread needs to be titled “if your whole reef is taken from the ocean and refreshed weekly by the ocean then you can avoid quarantine“ and right here is where people need practical work done on non quarantine because they don’t live near an ocean

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

when I see 100+ pages work threads I’m expecting there to be more than one works example in the pages.

what if we‘d spent 131 pages showing those posters how to make a dent

imagine being a new aquarist who doesn’t live near the ocean

Something would have to be posted in that forum and worked several pages regarding non quarantine in order for us to learn the method, sticky it, and reproduce it.

I don't get the impression that @Paul B is suggesting you need to flush out the system with natural water every week. I happen to agree that feeding well, a low stocking density, and (as you can see in Paul's tank) - a lot of filter feeders - that likely do help eat parasites/larvae. I also believe that healthy fish can better survive (and do survive CI and lesser so velvet). There are plenty of tanks out there that have proven this - heck - just the fact that most people here don't QT at all is testimony that it MIGHT be unnecessary.

One problem, though, is putting all the rest of the theory and separating the guesses from the real reasons a 'no QT system' works. To me - the age of the tank is not a criteria to show (or not show) that one method is better than others.