The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

HuduVudu

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this thread needs to be titled “if your whole reef is taken from the ocean and refreshed weekly by the ocean then you can avoid quarantine“ and right here is where people need practical work done on non quarantine because they don’t live near an ocean
I don't use NSW, I live near the ocean. I don't collect from the gulf that I live near because I am a hermit and I won't drive the 45 minutes that it takes to go to a place to collect. If I did collect it would be the Galveston Bay. That would rank IMO worse than where Paul collects.

If you want the ocean buy it. There are MANY places to get good biodiversity without leaving the comfort of your home. I won't list them here because anyone with a search engine and some curiosity can easily find them.

If people want answers they will find them. Shoving the "right" way down someones throat is the way of the charlatan.

when I see 100+ pages work threads I’m expecting there to be more than one works example in the pages.
Maybe a theory is more powerful than concrete examples. Just maybe.

what if we‘d spent 131 pages showing those posters how to make a dent
What if you lead a horse to water and he wouldn't drink?

imagine being a new aquarist who doesn’t live near the ocean
It was rough going in Boise ID in 1983. Funny GARF was only a few miles away.

Something would have to be posted in that forum and worked several pages regarding non quarantine in order for us to learn the method, sticky it, and reproduce it.
Maybe ideas aren't as easily transmittable as one thinks. Especially when the intended recipient doesn't want to know. It seems to me that if one tries because they really want success then they will understand.

 

brandon429

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what Im asking for is for someone to start this thread below, in the fish disease forum, and work it out to ten pages or more:

How to start your reef tank without quarantine


that's not terribly unlike the title of this thread, so lets test it. Someone took that challenge a few mos ago but the thread didn't pick up pace/fell back down.

gotta solicit a bit handle a few objections and get entrants posted, to bring the new examples.

currently in the form for fish disease, its all about qt and fallow for the big pattern views. the non qt approaches are always one off testimonies, astounding tanks for sure, not assemblies of multiple skip qt tanks

that means something about the data in my opinion.

I think in order to manage the thread you'll have to exclude all dry rock starts. only folks with aged live rock from some source can participate?

if we can include the dry/painted rock/recently cycled tanks in a working set of steps that'd be great, they comprise 90% imo of all posted starts on the whole board. it isn't good enough to tell people to quit doing that, disease prevention needs to rise to the market demand. btw I'd expect the folks posting here with the longest experience to be a powerful team when aligned. the disease forum really needs that thread
 
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HuduVudu

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what Im asking for is for someone to start this thread below, in the fish disease forum, and work it out to ten pages or more:

How to start your reef tank without quarantine


that's not terribly unlike the title of this thread, so lets test it. Someone took that challenge a few mos ago but the thread didn't pick up pace/fell back down.
It was me.

The fact is that no one wants that thread. Sorry to be pedantic but you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

You are beating a dead horse. You think people want success. You need to examine that thinking very carefully because it doesn't line up with reality. Four thousand calorie cookies will sell faster by far than organic zucchini.
 

brandon429

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apologize for not remembering the thread details yes I recall now. well we can at least agree the need is still there, per new posts today. You did write that with an intent to help it was written helpfully. I see what you mean.

others by all means can make the same attempt, what if three or four strong aquarists here made a motion in that forum... just brainstorming.
 

stanleo

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When I built my fishroom last year I did it with a QT. I thought I needed one. Then the pandemic hit and I couldn't get a new fish so it sat for months not being used and then finally I just turned it into a little tank in my fish room for problem critters that I buy on a whim and don't cohabitate well in my main tank. (My spotted giant hermit for one that ate half a starfish). So in two years I haven't quarantined anything nor do I dip any new corals. And in two years I haven't had any issues with disease. Some people say I get lucky but I have often wondered if quarantining does more harm than good.
 
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Paul B

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I'm learning so much by watching you guys argue
I don't argue on fish sites. :cool:

Brandon, as was said, people, even Noobs are resistant to change and will go with the common flow of people even if we feel it is wrong. I don't care if people quarantine, medicate or both. I feel they are heading for a life of hobby problems but like I keep saying, I am not the God of fish so if people want to do that, that is their right.

Me, and many successful people (like yourself) post about what we do. I even wrote a book, if people want to follow it, they can.

I just don't like it when people say something like "I didn't quarantine and all my fish died". I am sure they did, but that is not the correct method by itself.
 

Acros

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Granted my current tank is only 4 months old, none of the fish were quarantined. However, I fed them metroplex soaked frozen food for a week when I saw stringy white poop from one fish.

Interesting fact is that the fish developed white stringy poop once I started feeding only pellets for over a month. It was fine before that. I don’t know if that means anything.

I have killed more fish in quarantine. I also crashed my previous build by moving the rocks and kicking up sand. Current tank is bare bottom with live sand in refugium.

I have been in the hobby for only 8 months, but have gotten better at buying fish that is appropriate for my tank and examining fish for any obvious sings of disease.
 
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Paul B

Paul B

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James, First off, good morning. Nice to meet you. I am curious, why did you feed your fish Metroplex and only pellets for a month?

That would be one of the things that IMO would almost guarantee that your tank would have problems. I realize when you first start a tank everything you see, weather it be shaking, spots or stringy poop can be frightening and sometimes those things are a sign of disease, but more so, they mean nothing and are normal occurrences that appear on new, stressed fish.

I don't know whats in Metroplex but if it kills parasites, bacteria, fungus or viruses, it will affect the fish probably negatively. Sometimes that may be needed but very rarely unless you are a dealer, or wholesaler where many fish are being kept in a small space.

All fish are drugged when we get them, if there were no drugs, there would not be a fish hobby. But our job is to get those drugs out of the fish as soon as possible so the fishes own systems will normally start to run properly. The longer a fish is drugged, yes even with Metroplex, the longer it will be weak and have a compromised immune system.

It's like if we have surgery. We wake up (hopefully) all groggy and it may take a day or two to get that out of our systems. Our digestion may work questionably for a few days and we may be tired.
We can of course use that to get our spouse to wait on us but she will get tired of that soon and tell you to drag your butt out of bed and do something. :oops:

Thats how a fish feels when we drug them and after that is cleaned from them, they can function like they were supposed to and fish are very robust. They do not get sick on their own like we do or like the disease forum will lead you to believe.

Their immune system is better than ours, they are stronger than us (pound for pound).
They don't need a condo by the beach with a palm tree and someone serving them Pina Colada's like I do. :cool:

All they need is a place that resembles the sea. No stark white places. They need a place to feel secure where we can't see them . (no bare bottom either) Not a China cup with a picture of the vacation spot your parents took you to when you were 3 or a 2 1/2" white PVC elbow from Home Depot.

They need some old "rock" with some growth on it. They may want to see some algae or cyano.
They like to hunt pods and other tiny things in the rocks. Even if there are none of those tiny creatures, they need places to look for them as that is what fish do, they hunt. It is needed for their psyche.

When they get scared they can't make a facial expression like Scarlet Johanassen or scream like Faye Ray when King Kong was carrying her around (google her)

So in short. Put a fish, especially a new fish in a tank where there is rocks. Even clay bricks are good. Break them and pile them up so the fish can hide but never, never use anything stark white, PVC fittings, plates, cups or dishes as fish are afraid of smooth, white things.

Put one of those things in an established reef and see how far the fish stay away from it.

Do not medicate unless the fish is definitely croaking and then smack yourself 2 or 3 times for buying such a creature.

Get some frozen food like LRS or Rods. If you really want to be successful in this, start a white worm culture for about fifteen bucks.
Take your can of fish food pellets and feed them to your neighbors goldfish or sprinkle them around your yard for the birds. ;Yuck
 

MnFish1

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I have changed my attitude about the 'discussion' - after Brandon mentioned starting another exchange etc. I've come to the realization that many people believe they are right - and that Hudu hit the nail on the head - they do not want to change or hear reasons why what they do might be 'improved'. People that QT are 'positive' they are doing the right thing (just like people who say its 'cruel' to put bacteria and fish into a new tank on the same day. Even though empiric evidence suggests that a large majority of people on this site do not QT (at all) - there are people who firmly believe those people are cruel. Likewise, the instructions on bottled bacteria say add fish and bacteria on the same day - yet to many its 'blasphemy'. The 'Nothing good happens fast in this hobby' has resulted in people cycling tanks for weeks etc. They don't want to hear thats not necessary - because it means they wasted a bunch of time. After reading nearly all of these pages (some of them twice) I have come to the following conclusions:

1. Many people don't quarantine and have successful tanks.
2. Most people (QT or not) do not have 40 year old tanks suggesting to me there are other variables that cause that type of success.
3. People who QT have had disasters. People who don't QT have had disasters.

End conclusion - most 'success or failure' in the end comes down to the individual, not the individual's method. If you love the hobby, your fish, and learn a little science in time you will succeed.
 

ingchr1

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No, the thought is that the fish has taken a ton of damage from the meds and will now have to overcome the stress of all of the moves AND the stress from the meds plus any new stress the aquarist adds.

My thinking which may or may not be what others here think is that the meds trash the fishes digestive tract and the increased level of stress taxes the fishes energy reserves and immune response. This leaves the fish open to predation from parasites that are in the aquarium. The fishes immune system worked just fine before they were pulled from the ocean and put through the meat grinder on the way to our aquariums. I believe our first and foremost priority to the fish is to remove as much stress from them as possible and increase their energy reserves. When this can be accomplished their odds of full recovery are very good. I don't believe that fish are damaged permanently. I think that they were put through a lot of necessary and unnecessary stress before they arrived adding more seems counter-productive.
I have yellow tail blenny that was fully quarantined by a reputable shop. I've had the fish for about a year. A couple of months ago the fish developed severe popeye. The fish recovered over the course of a few weeks. After the fish recovered it developed severe popeye in the other eye. Again the fish recovered over the course of a few weeks. I didn't panic and pull the fish from the tank, I just let it do its thing in the tank and recover.

This leads me to believe that they are not irreversibly damage, and to question to what level quarantine affects the fish. Given that the quarantine is done correctly and meds are not overdosed.

While my fish have been through some level quarantine (two by myself and two by the shop), I would not call the tank sterile. I do not quarantine inverts or coral. Yes, the coral does get a dip. To date I've only lost a couple of coral. A Xenia, Alveopora and a Ricordia. To contrast I have a few SPS, Gonioapora and a couple other Ricorda that are all doing well (growing, encrusting, splitting).

I'm done quarantining fish myself. I'll leave it to experts who do it for a living. Doing it myself gives me the liability, leaves room for error that could affect the fish more than it should, takes up time and I really don't have room for another tank. Plus the place I ordered them from really wasn't all that much more than the prices I have seen in some of my LFSs.

At the moment this is what has provided me success with keeping fish alive. The four fish I have, I have had for a year. The prior year no success. Quarantine, no quarantine and just observation. Most of the fish I had in quarantine did live to make it to the main tank. One died in quarantine from flukes (not flounder) and the other was the infamous fish that died of eating a piece of "dirt".

This is not to say that at some point I won't put a non-quarantined fish in the tank. I'll need to decide when that time is. And I'm not sure that doing so will place the other quarantined fish in peril.

MnFish hit the nail on the head:
End conclusion - most 'success or failure' in the end comes down to the individual, not the individual's method. If you love the hobby, your fish, and learn a little science in time you will succeed.
 

Acros

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2. Most people (QT or not) do not have 40 year old tanks suggesting to me there are other variables that cause that type of success.
Median home ownership is only 13 years. I bet that’s mostly why we do not see a lot of really old tanks. People move a lot and most people start over when they move.
 

hubble

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I gotta be honest with ya, I've never quarantined anything that I've put in my tanks. There I said it. I've had several tanks throughout the years and my most successful were setup with Florida live rock and live sand. I also feed Rod's frozen food (da bomb) and some pellets. I probably had all kinds of pests in my tanks but I guess I was just to dumb to know it. I would keep tangs for algae control, cleaner shrimp, and wrasse's. Everything had a purpose and the tanks done very well. I do recall adding Florida live rock and sand to an established tank once and the next day seeing these white specks all over my purple tang. I was kind of freakin out about it, but in a couple days the specks were gone never to be seen again.
 

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Acros

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James, First off, good morning. Nice to meet you. I am curious, why did you feed your fish Metroplex and only pellets for a month?

That would be one of the things that IMO would almost guarantee that your tank would have problems. I realize when you first start a tank everything you see, weather it be shaking, spots or stringy poop can be frightening and sometimes those things are a sign of disease, but more so, they mean nothing and are normal occurrences that appear on new, stressed fish.

I don't know whats in Metroplex but if it kills parasites, bacteria, fungus or viruses, it will affect the fish probably negatively. Sometimes that may be needed but very rarely unless you are a dealer, or wholesaler where many fish are being kept in a small space.

All fish are drugged when we get them, if there were no drugs, there would not be a fish hobby. But our job is to get those drugs out of the fish as soon as possible so the fishes own systems will normally start to run properly. The longer a fish is drugged, yes even with Metroplex, the longer it will be weak and have a compromised immune system.

It's like if we have surgery. We wake up (hopefully) all groggy and it may take a day or two to get that out of our systems. Our digestion may work questionably for a few days and we may be tired.
We can of course use that to get our spouse to wait on us but she will get tired of that soon and tell you to drag your butt out of bed and do something. :oops:

Thats how a fish feels when we drug them and after that is cleaned from them, they can function like they were supposed to and fish are very robust. They do not get sick on their own like we do or like the disease forum will lead you to believe.

Their immune system is better than ours, they are stronger than us (pound for pound).
They don't need a condo by the beach with a palm tree and someone serving them Pina Colada's like I do. :cool:

All they need is a place that resembles the sea. No stark white places. They need a place to feel secure where we can't see them . (no bare bottom either) Not a China cup with a picture of the vacation spot your parents took you to when you were 3 or a 2 1/2" white PVC elbow from Home Depot.

They need some old "rock" with some growth on it. They may want to see some algae or cyano.
They like to hunt pods and other tiny things in the rocks. Even if there are none of those tiny creatures, they need places to look for them as that is what fish do, they hunt. It is needed for their psyche.

When they get scared they can't make a facial expression like Scarlet Johanassen or scream like Faye Ray when King Kong was carrying her around (google her)

So in short. Put a fish, especially a new fish in a tank where there is rocks. Even clay bricks are good. Break them and pile them up so the fish can hide but never, never use anything stark white, PVC fittings, plates, cups or dishes as fish are afraid of smooth, white things.

Put one of those things in an established reef and see how far the fish stay away from it.

Do not medicate unless the fish is definitely croaking and then smack yourself 2 or 3 times for buying such a creature.

Get some frozen food like LRS or Rods. If you really want to be successful in this, start a white worm culture for about fifteen bucks.
Take your can of fish food pellets and feed them to your neighbors goldfish or sprinkle them around your yard for the birds. ;Yuck
Hi Paul, Nice to meet you as well, and thank you for the reply.

I started by only feeding frozen food from Rod's food. I found that I end up overfeeding when I provide them with only frozen food. Hence I slowly switched to using an auto-feeder with PE pellets. It is one month after this switch that I found a tail spot blenny with white stringy poop.

That is when I started feeding them frozen food soaked in Metroplex (Treats protozoan parasites and anaerobic bacterial diseases, Active ingredients: metronidazole (70%). Source: https://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php)

The issue cleared up in a few days. Now they are back on the PE pellets, but I feed them Rod's frozen food every other day. My nutrients are stable and under control. I think I will add some live foods into the mix.
 
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Paul B

Paul B

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Median home ownership is only 13 years. I bet that’s mostly why we do not see a lot of really old tanks. People move a lot and most people start over when they move.
This is true and if you are moving to a different state, I also wouldn't bring my tank. I moved 3 times but all the moves were in New York so I just got a truck and threw everything in vats for the move. I never lost anything.
 

HuduVudu

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End conclusion - most 'success or failure' in the end comes down to the individual, not the individual's method. If you love the hobby, your fish, and learn a little science in time you will succeed.
I trade stocks and I have read many books from successful traders. One thing that really stands out from this process that took place almost ten years ago for me. It goes like this. One of the traders said that he trades to stay in the game. He doesn't trade to win, he doesn't trade to make money. Think about that. You read a lot about traders that blow out and lose spectacularly. They take big risks they get lucky or unlucky. They rake in the big bucks. Then ... they're out. To learn no matter what, you gotta stay in the game. You want success you gotta stay in the game. You gotta keep trading. I have blown out three $5k accounts. To say that I was angry is a very large understatement, but I stayed in the game. Kept trading adjusted my strategy tried new things. If you stay with something long enough you are going to find success. You just gotta stay with it.

One of my favorite trading books is Reminiscences of a Stock Operator. I loved the learning and the insight from this book. I use many many of these insights in my own trading. But here are the cold hard facts ... he killed himself because he lost everything in trading.

If you love the fish, the corals, the aquariums you will stick with it. You will read this necro'ed post start to end. You will read many others like it. You will try, you will fail. The entire time it will be you that are doing these things. It will always be you. If your intentions are pure then you will stay with it. If they are not i.e. I want to have a tank that people are jealous of, then there will come something that you need to do that you will not do because it is too hard and the reward won't be worth it. I made myself very very sick trying to get my genny up during the cold snap. I knew I was hurting myself. I knew what I was doing was going to cost me in the long run. I did it because I love my fish, I love my aquariums. I don't want to lose them. Would someone who is just doing it for likes on R2R or for their YouTube channel be willing to go the extra mile? Probably not. Funny it is times like those that the real learning takes place. People don't make it there because they want it to be easy. I can't count how many projects that I have embarked on to make things easy only to work really hard for quite a while and then throw the idea in the garbage because it didn't make things easier. :p

Thank you @MnFish1 for your honesty. It is refreshing. It is also how all of us learn. Including me. :)
 

fishybizzness

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As my build thread title says, my aquarium is my slice of the reef! I love the fact that I can actually have small "reef" in my living room! I don't go for the multi color bedazzled look of some aquariums that I see on this site and others. I tend to prefer a more authentic looking reef tank, kinda what I see when I go snorkeling. My ultimate goal for my aquarium would be for it to look like @Brandon McHenrys Caribbean reef tank at the ocean discovery center in Florida! It has to be one of the most authentic aquariums i know of and one of the most beautiful imo!
 

brandon429

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going to direct new recent cycles there

Paul, post to help out there dont leave Hudu working it alone.


we are about to get some no quarantine tests. Gimme two weeks to aim all private message cycles there upon completion.

soon, people with no ocean sourcing will be posting. If you want them to feed seafood or dose certain things, can do. Once we get some 6-8 month feedbacks this claim will be balanced and hopefully useful as fish disease is truly rampant, they’re shipping out loaded with disease from the gills to the caudal fin.
 
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brandon429

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As the self appointed thread salesman lol ive noticed my first roadblock is the top fish scientist on the board saying it wont work, and by inference it sounds like he’s saying it will kill many fish unneeded since no other data has ever been shown using others tanks, but I hate to repeat or read into things... I almost feel unethical pressing for entrants, but we’ve got to start somewhere outside the fifty year old reef

new tank science is only good if it’s repeatable and easily communicated

it feels as if I’m gaining entrants by having them ignore top information and use completely esoteric nonspecific methods and the risk is their fish dying. Whereas if they fallow and qt, 80% will live and thrive because dry rock tanks require something ordered and timed. My guess going off posts, if it’s 60% then thats fine but it’s a majority.
 
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