The Proven Best Lighting Solution for your Aquarium

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A. grandis

A. grandis

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The real catch is that it doesn’t matter what anyone posts here. Next week, or sooner he will post another MH rule thread and this all will get repeated as it has many, many times. I wonder how many threads and posts grandis has made about the inferiority of leds.

i do have to say I admire his passion for the subject. Or obsession, not sure. It does imo make this site worse, but to chase something with such zeal! Amazing!
Thanks for your comments!
If you knew me you would see that I'm not your enemy.
Hope this brings your feeling to the positive side towards me as a person.
 
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BeltedCoyote

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I just want to thank you both for the precious dog's pictures!
I love dogs!

I had to open this thread, so we could bring it to the ground once for all without having to discuss with oreo in the other metal halide thread, that I didn't open. Good for the newbies to see what really happens in the market, so... do your search, really!

Bottom line is that metal halide is still a great way to light your corals and will deliver a very well distributed amount of quality light over the system. In my experiences it has given the life that no other light would give. When you add the T5s the halides, the system just over saturate with life. It's just incredible! Results are what we want. We choose what we can/want. I'm not worried about that.

It was good to vent a little about the misinformation that LED companies are spreading.
That was my point anyways.
We all have our personal way to see it, I get it.

In regards to the "green" stuff... there is no plans to stop production of MH and T5s".
Here:

"I personally have recently communicated with Giesemann, ATI, Radium and Ushio about this.
The only bulbs that will fall into a possible ban will be the ones used for commercial facilities and houses. All specialized bulbs, as for horticulture and aquarium purposes will have their production unaltered.
Radium confirmed their production of both 250W and 400W lamps to remain normal with no plans to stop.

Giesemann said there will be absolutely no changes in production of their metal halides and T5 bulbs with no plans for any type of change. People are importing Spectra and Infinity fixtures because BRS decided not to have metal halide gear available on their web site anymore. BRS told me they were not selling much halides and therefore they didn't want to keep them on their shelves. I asked if that was to promote LEDs, they said no. Ha! Yes, I did ask that!

ATI also told me their T5s will be produced in their normal numbers with no plans to stop.

Hamilton is also producing their metal halide bulbs at the moment, to restock after their sales went sky high last January. They are also producing more fixtures and ballasts to supply the market. Hamilton sells not only to hobbyists, but also to public aquariums. They will keep the Bimini and the Cebu fixtures discontinued for now. I suggested for a redesigned metal halide/T5 fixture to substitute the Cebu, similar to Giesemann Spectra. I hope they would consider and be able to accomplish that. If there is enough demand they will probably produce those fixtures. They would have to actually know if we would like to have such fixture and the numbers should be high enough for the investment in the production. The only for that to happen is if the public would communicating with them for that demand, I guess!

I also talked to Tullio, from ReefBrite, and they will also keep their production at 100%. Tullio said their sales of metal halide gear also went up and they are selling lots of fixtures, ballasts and bulbs around the globe. They supply a great number of metal halide equipment to public aquariums as well, specially now that most of those public aquariums that have tried LEDs are going back to halides due to their unpublished researches and experiments with LEDs. I wish they would publish those!!!! Tullio said that metal halides will remain unbeatable as they are the best artificial light that resembles natural sunlight in many ways, specially spectrum wise.

I've spend a long time on the phone with Ushio and the only way to bring back their normal metal halide production, specially the "untouchable" 250W 14K, is if they can attest a real worldwide demand of their bulbs. They said they know that the demand for public aquariums is high, but they want to have the market back and will do so only if they see their competitors selling metal halides as they were before.
There is a possibility for special order though, and that order should exceed certain minimum number of bulbs (undefined at the moment). They said if the people aren't buying their current stock of 10Ks and 20K 250W halides, that demand isn't enough. They do have 175W 14K SE and most of their other halide bulbs in stock.

We still have the LED market suffocating the MH and T5 market with their market strategies using propaganda (fake marketing) in an aggressive way like never before. Lies and distractions, as well as personal opinions from manufacturers and consumers, have been driven the market towards them every second. They are desperate to eliminate halides from the market at once! Priorities in this hobby have been dictated by some of the most influential people we know, used by those LED companies to spread ideologies, practical comfort and aesthetics in fashion and design are their main priorities. While what we need to provide to the organisms we keep is mainly and simply quality of light. Money has been spoken louder than actual quality IMO. They know that if 20% of the hobbyists approve halides as the primary light for their corals, the probability of that number to explode is huge, so they want to keep it very low!

On top of that, we have most, if not all, METAL HALIDE PRODUCERS in a very PASSIVE MODE, specially in terms of ADVERTISEMENT! LEDs sell mainly because of their aggressive advertisement on social media, period!!!!! I think online stores, like BRS, appreciate that very much and also do their advertisement, and will also continue to appreciate the high sale$$ of a high valued one time purchase with annual upgrades! Besides that, LED companies are sponsoring people, Youtube channels, etc... They are very good at their marketing.

People coming to the hobby today will hear most likely about LEDs and it's "wonderful abilities" of control and apps with their promotion of blue reflective qualities. Stores and authors are the main channel for such fashion and it came to the point that will be very hard to educate the public and bring back the real qualities of this wonderful hobby back. Things change, I get it. Too bad they are changing to be so superfluous in regards to lighting and at this rhythm.

There are not enough voices in the desert to claim the truth at the moment.
And some times when we do, those lines on the sand are blown by the strong and powerful of monetary wind.

All we need to teach this new generation that the lies spread about MH and T5s are not supposed to continue. It's becoming a war because of the fight to defeat MH from the market. LEDs are trying very hard for so many years. Although they conquered some good significant territory, they will never be able substitute it's real qualities. That's why halides remain King
."

FROM:

You guys are free to take a look at the MH threads and see what people think about the results. Many of them came from LEDs...
I don't sell anything, so you don't need to think that I have any interest in posting to make money or something like that. Thank God I don't need that stuff! The options are there for us to decide.

Any more dog's pics?
God bless you guys.


i appreciate your openness to the discussion. But I will say you’re just trying to postulate that MH is the best when it cannot be proven to be so.

again I thank you for not being militant about your stance, but there’s as many quotes I could pull about LED being the future with developing technology and how the power consumption needed to even run MH is an argument against it.

it works. But it isn’t “the best”. Most LEDs aren’t either at this point. But some fixtures available now seem to do just as well and don’t have the downsides. And the technology is improving.

but really, I don’t like these threads because they’re typically very hostile to someone suggesting MH aren’t best. I applaud you OP because your thread isn’t one of them. But still, you haven’t provided any quotes that make me want to abandon my plan in light of a lighting system that will make my SO murder me for the electric bill, and will grow corals better than my plans.

I really wish we as a community could get away from the idea of “best”. I mean, I’m friends with an old salt on here who ran halides, xhos, and is now switching to LED and T5. And he grows corals. And honestly, (it’s subjective) he has better looking growth and color then a lot of the “MH are best” crowd.

MH are awesome. But not feasible for most getting into the hobby. There are still options that will grow Coral amazingly. Can we just stop say MH is the best?
 
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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this is all I was trying to get at and honestly I agree this should end the discussion.
The only thing that I've noticed after discussions like this in the past decade is that some would try halides and totally approve it. Just do your search...
The discussion never ends because there will be always someone that will say something wrong or find a lie published by a LED company and it will be the beginning of another discussion.
 
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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i appreciate your openness to the discussion. But I will say you’re just trying to postulate that MH is the best when it cannot be proven to be so.

again I thank you for not being militant about your stance, but there’s as many quotes I could pull about LED being the future with developing technology and how the power consumption needed to even run MH is an argument against it.

it works. But it isn’t “the best”. Most LEDs aren’t either at this point. But some fixtures available now seem to do just as well and don’t have the downsides. And the technology is improving.

but really, I don’t like these threads because they’re typically very hostile to someone suggesting MH aren’t best. I applaud you OP because your thread isn’t one of them. But still, you haven’t provided any quotes that make me want to abandon my plan in light of a lighting system that will make my SO murder me for the electric bill, and will grow corals better than my plans.

I really wish we as a community could get away from the idea of “best”. I mean, I’m friends with an old salt on here who ran halides, xhos, and is now switching to LED and T5. And he grows corals. And honestly, (it’s subjective) he has better looking growth and color then a lot of the “MH are best” crowd.

MH are awesome. But not feasible for most getting into the hobby. There are still options that will grow Coral amazingly. Can we just stop say MH is the best?
I just wanted to post what oreo sent to me.
Let people discuss what Hamilton said!
As long as it is a healthy discussion, with valid points, without any personal attacks it should be ok.
Hamilton published that, not me.
I thank oreo for showing me that.
This is a lighting forum and lighting should be discussed.
That is the main purpose of this forum, I would believe.
My opinion is just different than others.
We are all free to test and try.

edit: I come here mostly to answer halide private messages and MH o T5 threads... I normally don't get involved with LED stuff. Just wanted to chill and someone woke me up with a great text from Hamilton making a big deal accusing me that I was working for them... BOOM! LOL!
 

BeltedCoyote

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The reason why halides give you the same sensation the sun gives is because it has the true full spectrum and intensity to be compared to the sun! UV and IR are also utilized by the corals along all the so called "PAR" area of the spectrum. Photosynthesis occur from UV to IR. That is THE full spectrum. The combination of all qualities makes halides the KING of lights. hanks for your comment!

its the best approximation of the suns spectrum. And I know corals use a range of UV to IR. I know what PAR is and how it interacts with the zooanthelle (sp?) of Coral. I also know PAR isn’t a true measurement of the spectrum and wavelengths needed for optimum photosynthesis. MH has a wider spectrum. But the inverse of having a broad idk? Focus, benefit? Is there a lot of wasted energy on the wavelengths which aren’t truly needed vs the focused spectrum of LED. LED had a ways to go. But still. If MH is king, as good as it is, it’s a dying kingdom
 
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A. grandis

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its the best approximation of the suns spectrum. And I know corals use a range of UV to IR. I know what PAR is and how it interacts with the zooanthelle (sp?) of Coral. I also know PAR isn’t a true measurement of the spectrum and wavelengths needed for optimum photosynthesis. MH has a wider spectrum. But the inverse of having a broad idk? Focus, benefit? Is there a lot of wasted energy on the wavelengths which aren’t truly needed vs the focused spectrum of LED. LED had a ways to go. But still. If MH is king, as good as it is, it’s a dying kingdom
We shall see.
I hope not.
Only God knows, my friend.
What I know is that if depends on Hamilton, Radium, ReefBrite and Giesemann it will not die soon.
 

BeltedCoyote

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The only thing that I've noticed after discussions like this in the past decade is that some would try halides and totally approve it. Just do your search...
The discussion never ends because there will be always someone that will say something wrong or find a lie published by a LED company and it will be the beginning of another discussion.

trust me I’ve done my research. And what I’ve seen is the individuals who try MH and are all about them either are coming back into the hobby and didn’t like LED so went back to what worked, or they wanted something more intense that provided quicker results and then read threads like this and decide MH is the best and aren’t open to any kind of discussion but MH is best, mkay (couldn’t resist, SP is great).

anyway, I’m lazy but I could point to as many or more examples of people getting into LED and/or T5 and being as happy.

so why is MH King? It’s great. It works. It’s expensive to run and hard for most of us amateurs to justify. LED and T5 have just as much evidence of success.
 
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A. grandis

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trust me I’ve done my research. And what I’ve seen is the individuals who try MH and are all about them either are coming back into the hobby and didn’t like LED so went back to what worked, or they wanted something more intense that provided quicker results and then read threads like this and decide MH is the best and aren’t open to any kind of discussion but MH is best, mkay (couldn’t resist, SP is great).

anyway, I’m lazy but I could point to as many or more examples of people getting into LED and/or T5 and being as happy.

so why is MH King? It’s great. It works. It’s expensive to run and hard for most of us amateurs to justify. LED and T5 have just as much evidence of success.
To be lazy is to miss the best.
To be happy is relative and personal.
Success depends on comparison.
The corals don't "see" as we do.
 

BeltedCoyote

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To be lazy is to miss the best.
To be happy is relative and personal.
Success depends on comparison.
The corals don't "see" as we do.

to focus on “lazy” is to be deluded.
happiness is letting go of attachment.
comparison is to lose oneself to attachment.

the coral are a reminder of the nature of things
 
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A. grandis

A. grandis

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I dont understand you always trying to shove MH doen peoples throats. Cherry corals, unique corals, wwc, tidal gardens. Mike pelleta, sanjay, jake adams, richard ross all use LED, nuff said
You clearly don't know anything about those you have mentioned above.
Just search this forum alone and you will find many interesting things related to this post and the subject... Enough said.
 

Ryan Avery

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You were on reef bums stream, you said the big coral farmers use LED because they believed the “ rumors” put out by the LED companies. I found that very disrespectful. As if to say they were not smart enough to think for themselves.
 

Waynerock

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TG has all old T5 fixtures in the green house but his new investment farm is about 30 odd G4 pros. Not an investment to make lightly if you are still longing for T5 and Halide. Everything in the new facility looks sweet under the G4’s and I can’t say I have seen a Halide in Jakes shop in a looong time.
 

BeltedCoyote

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You clearly don't know anything about those you have mentioned above.
Just search this forum alone and you will find many interesting things related to this post and the subject... Enough said.

jake Adams has literally said MH is awesome but trying to justify 250, 400W to light a reeftank is absurd. And LED is NOW just as good.

can you provide a specific example from him that says MH is still better?
 
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A. grandis

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I will not give you this in your hands.
You guys have to search and think!
No laziness anymore!
LOL!
Maybe others will chime in and tell you...
 

BeltedCoyote

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I will not give you this in your hands.
You guys have to search and think!
No laziness anymore!
LOL!
Maybe others will chime in and tell you...

my guy I can tell you the point in the reef therapy podcast where Jake said what I reported.

I still appreciate your supposed openness to discussion.

but at this point, I’ve provided an actual statement made by a big player in our hobby.

instead of providing anything from Jake that might prove otherwise you’re claiming “no more laziness”.

but it’s you saying, “you’re wrong because I said so. Go look it up” who’s the lazy one now?

give me an example of Jake Adams still claiming MH is best. Show me something where Sanjay has gone back on his decision to switch to LED. Point me to something disclosing Jason Fox or Thanh saying their current setups are inferior to just running MH.

im still not saying MH is the worst. I honestly wish that I could justify running it. It’s just not feasible.

but again. How is MH the king of lighting? And how have the figures I’ve mentioned corroborated your claim in the last 5 years?

i was lazy to pull up all the threads of people switching from MH to LED because there are enough to make me not want to bother.

I’m asking you for three examples proving your point and you refuse to definitely provide them. Who is actually lazy in their argument?
 

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Halides are dead tech and will continue to be harder and harder to find. It's a matter of a few years until it's just a footnote in history. Halides were the main stay because they worked well but like the Model T they were not perfect and people moved on to better things.
 

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Even the leathers prefer halides. But, they like lower Kelvin. I ran leds on various tanks and aftwr trying halides, I hope to never have to give them up. I run generic bulbs, and the growth has been triple over what I could get with leds. I was even running watt for watt of real current draw measured at the outlet. Not that BS number manufacturers claim.

20210626_101623.jpg
 
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