The Sheer Number of Supplements on the Market is a Joke. What Happened to Trying to Create a Natural Environment?

[Spare time]

I know you're not referring to fish as artificial... but if fish are naturally evolved organisms then they evolved to obtain everything they need to survive in a specific way. It's in their best interest for us to do our best to provide for their needs in those ways (aka naturally). It isn't fully possible to do that in all cases I understand but using as natural approach as possible would likely be healthier for the fish than a less natural approach.

They can't get things the way they do naturally in a reef. Our tanks are boxes of water, not the ocean. It's literally impossible to allow them to exhibit their foraging behaviors that you'd see in the wild in a tank that's a couple feet big.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

A food being live doesn't really make a difference and the EXACT things that these fish eat in their wild environment are not common if not impossible or extremely difficult to get.

Live foods are rich in nutrients because they have not been processed like commercial foods. another benefit is the fact that they can be gut loaded so it can make a difference. Obtaining the live food or culturing it is highly dependent upon the organism...

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

They can't get things the way they do naturally in a reef. Our tanks are boxes of water, not the ocean. It's literally impossible to allow them to exhibit their foraging behaviors that you'd see in the wild in a tank that's a couple feet big.

I agree with you. The original message of the thread has changed to a degree now. I do not believe fish have to be fed precisely their natural prey at all. What I was saying in the post is that vitamin supplements aren't a magic bullet that transform low quality food into a food source that will promote maximum health. I just think they're overused.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

They can't get things the way they do naturally in a reef. Our tanks are boxes of water, not the ocean. It's literally impossible to allow them to exhibit their foraging behaviors that you'd see in the wild in a tank that's a couple feet big.

I agree with you. The original message of the thread has changed to a degree now. I do not believe fish have to be fed precisely their natural prey at all. What I was saying in the post is that vitamin supplements aren't a magic bullet that transform low quality food into the ideal diet. I just think they're overused primarily.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

All I can pull from your posts is that vitamin supplements are bad, you seem to be OK with the rest?

Regarding food, thinking that some magical blend of DIY food is any more natural in replicating the fauna and micro fauna for a range of different reef inhabitants, versus a bottle of amino acids or vitamins, just seems like a false premise. Both are attempts at replicating food sources they can use, neither truly “natural”. This feels similar to the perception of “organic” food labeling for humans.

If all you can pull from my original post in that vitamin supplements are bad and I'm ok with the rest, you clearly missed a majority of the post. I mentioned vitamin supplements briefly just to give an example. I can't remember if I already responded to you but in fact, the natural food source (replicating the fauna and microfauna would be the next best thing) IS very important to the organism. Simply enriching foods with vitamins and amino acids which vary in how they're produced (some are certainly not produced from quality components) DOES NOT perfectly replicate the natural food source and in fact is likely farther than the substituted macro and microfauna native to the predator's habitat.

 

[Karen00]

I think we have to remember that not everyone has access to the same products as their neighbour or people on the other side of the world. For example... I live next to freshwater lakes so I have no means to walk out my door and snag a bit of real seawater (not that I necessarily would given the amount of pollution out there). This also applies to food so supplements might be needed to ensure the health of our aquatic friends is maintained.

Having said that if there are any supplements that are snake oil those should be called out so people can choose whether to buy them or not with eyes wide open. I use Selcon and Vita-Chem Marine just to ensure my tank's inhabitants are getting all the nutrients they need.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Some of the commenters either misunderstood the original post or just derailed the conversation intended. My post wasn't demonizing food additives. I used vitamin supplements as a single example. I use some supplements myself and as i explicitly stated in the original post, there are definitely supplements and additives which are important in the hobby. My point was that some supplements (not even specifying which ones) are overused, over promoted, and not always the best choice and some may even be harmful. I prefer to do things through the natural approach as much as I can and I think that's what a lot of people used to strive for before the supplement boom.

I think I answered the many questions asked and feel I represented and defended my position fairly well.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Dude I was just about to point that out! Natural as a term is just as useless as organic, healthy, and scientific.

Hey, I apologize for my comment earlier. I thought you were making an unnecessary comment about how I phrased something while answering another post.

 

[HBtank]

Vitamin supplements aren't bad. I never said that. They are commonly used however, to add vitamins to foods which are not suitable for many fish. Simply adding a vitamin additive does not magically make food healthy or ensure it's meeting the needs of the organism because nutrient absorption is a complex process. Live foods, many of which are readily available and can be found in the natural habitat of the organism are much more likely to meet nutritional requirements.

But that was the only thing you referenced so far, and the OP is definitely implying some supplements are "bad". I guess I am unclear on what supplements you are actually talking about.

Why not get back to the basics of establishing a new tank with some quality live rock and instead of soaking your fish food in vitamin supplements feeding them a much more natural diet which would supply them with the vitamins and minerals they need naturally?

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

But that was the only thing you referenced so far. I guess I am unclear on what supplements you think are "unnatural".

In the case of food and nutrition, I differentiate between natural and unnatural with natural being a food source the organism eats in the wild. When I refer to a food source as unnatural, it isn't what the organism has been developed to eat and many unnatural supplements are processed or simply nonnative to the area. Unnatural food sources and supplements are foreign to the microbiome of the digestive system of the organism.

 

[jft]

Most of the additives are snake oil supplements in my opinion and I have 40 years marine experience and am a Board certified Medical pathologist. I knew Albert Thiel personally when he was alive and I remember distinctly him saying he could urinate in a bottle and place a pretty label on it and people would buy it. He saw the hobby as very gullible people looking for the MAGIC exlixir!

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Most of the additives are snake oil supplements in my opinion and I have 40 years marine experience and am a Board certified Medical pathologist. I knew Albert Thiel personally when he was alive and I remember distinctly him saying he could urinate in a bottle and place a pretty label on it and people would buy it. He saw the hobby as very gullible people looking for the MAGIC exlixir!

Thank you for sharing! People are generally reluctant to believe things like that though so sadly it'll probably fall on deaf ears...

 

[HBtank]

In the case of food and nutrition, I differentiate between natural and unnatural with natural being a food source the organism eats in the wild. When I refer to a food source as unnatural, it isn't what the organism has been developed to eat and many unnatural supplements are processed or simply nonnative to the area. Unnatural food sources and supplements are foreign to the microbiome of the digestive system of the organism.

Understood.

But I don't think this is feasible for most of the livestock we keep. People are not maintaining diverse and locally sourced zoo/phyto plankton cultures or collecting fauna from specific reef locations to feed their fish.

Then add in the fact that we mix all sorts of livestock from areas of the world, and locations on reefs, and it just seems like this would be impractical and extremely costly, even if you could do it to a degree.

 

[HBtank]

Thank you for sharing! People are generally reluctant to believe things like that though so sadly it'll probably fall on deaf ears...

I wholeheartedly agree that the typical "Algae-B-Gone" and "Miracle-Clear" products at the LFS that claim to be a magic solution to your problems, are junk. But I don't think the people here are really the customers they target.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Understood.

But I don't think this is feasible for most of the livestock we keep. People are not maintaining diverse and locally sourced zoo/phyto plankton cultures or collecting fauna from specific reef locations to feed their fish.

Then add in the fact that we mix all sorts of livestock from areas of the world, and locations on reefs, and it just seems like this would be impractical and extremely costly, even if you could do it to a degree.

I agree with you when you say it's not really feasible. I don't see any issue with feeding frozen or alive zooplankton, mysis, brine, etc. Those foods have the needed nutrition for many species of fish. The unnatural part is when you take an additive (say a vitamin additive) and soak dry food in it to enrich it...I consider that unnatural in the sense you were asking about.
Sorry for the confusion, i was thinking natural vs. unnatural in a different sense of the terms.

 

[\m/reefsnmetal\m/]

Please be civil and allow me to respond to the other commenters. I also highly doubt you know much about those terms in reality. Go ahead and get on Google or grab a dictionary to be sure you're correct while I'm answering others' posts.

LOL my comment was civil and not directed at you or your use of any terms. It was a comment on how the terms get misconstrued or manipulated for marketing purposes, and not just in reefing. Body building, dietary, and "health" supplements in general have an abundance of "snake oils" marketed using the same terms I mentioned earlier. I actually agree with you and understand your frustration because there's a lot of expensive stuff people invest in for their tanks that may be unnecessary or directly cause adverse effects. For example, there is another thread floating around discussing coral coloration supplements that actually kill some of the zooxanthellae on corals in order to bring that color out. Regarding my knowledge of the terms, I will not seek validation of my knowledge, education, or experience from randos on internet forums so I'll leave it at that.

 

[\m/reefsnmetal\m/]

Hey, I apologize for my comment earlier. I thought you were making an unnecessary comment about how I phrased something while answering another post.

No need to apologize, but it is appreciated.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

No need to apologize, but it is appreciated.

I shouldn't have responded so sharply...just got temporarily overwhelmed by flood of comments coming in all at once and was trying to answer them all

 

[\m/reefsnmetal\m/]

I shouldn't have responded so sharply...just got temporarily overwhelmed by flood of comments coming in all at once and was trying to answer them all

No worries. You were in the middle of a vicious conflict of opposing philosophies.

 

[fish farmer]

I agree with you when you say it's not really feasible. I don't see any issue with feeding frozen or alive zooplankton, mysis, brine, etc. Those foods have the needed nutrition for many species of fish. The unnatural part is when you take an additive (say a vitamin additive) and soak dry food in it to enrich it...I consider that unnatural in the sense you were asking about.
Sorry for the confusion, i was thinking natural vs. unnatural in a different sense of the terms.

So this sounds a lot like when my boss used to tell me taking vitamins was just creating expensive urine....you should get all you need from the foods you eat.