The Start of Misinformation, Misunderstandings, and Acknowledging Lack of Knowledge

[livinlifeinBKK]

First of all in this day and age I first have to state this is aimed to offend nobody and is not intended to offend in any way. This is something I do, however , feel is important for someone to say and since nobody else has said it yet I will. I THINK a lot of misinformation gets started on internet forums and this one is no exception. The way it starts (I think) is from people unintentionally making claims from anecdotal evidence which sound like and are presented as if they are facts supported by empirical data. Another primary source is from people making blanket statements regarding various organisms which are not supported by the currently accepted scientific research (maybe in the same genus for example) which actually have significant variations in the real world. This is something I've encountered multiple times here and although taxonomy does group organisms together based on traits, it does so based upon VERY specific similarities and not by making blanket statements formed over the course of 5 minutes. Because people commonly fail to mention that their statements are opinions or gathered from personal experience and not scientific research or empirical data there are almost certainly people who see the statement and take it as a fact and later repeat what they heard in the same way and spread it further.
Also sometimes we just don't know the answer to a question we've been asked. It DOESN'T MAKE YOU dumb because you don't know the answer. It's perfectly fine and honest to say "I don't know" or something similar. I've seen countless times people provide answers that simply aren't true because they just don't want to admit to not knowing. Another thing I see people do sometimes is add a lot of qualifiers in their answer to try to make it sound like their previously untrue statement is true at times no matter how rare it may be. There's nothing wrong in simply admitting you don't know or acknowledging something you previously said is incorrect instead of trying to justify it.

NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better.

The purpose of this lengthy post is to #1 make new members aware they should be trusting research backed by evidence and make them aware there are many opinions shared in this hobby that are simply opinions and not fact and #2 to encourage people to be a little more conscious about claims they make and if they're opinions to state that or imply it in some way.

It's midday here but know it's the middle of the night for most people and do feel there is importance in trying to avoid the spread of misinformation so I may bump the thread a little later.

R2R is a great resource we have. Let's keep it that way and even improve by letting people know the level of reliability of information being spread on the site.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s just morning here in the United Kingdom, misinformation it’s all about perspective there is statements that are true alone although in the big picture may not be the same. One that I commonly see is the stripping of nutrients to starve algae. On its own this statement is true, algae can’t survive for a long period of time without nutrients, this statement alone is most likely true. if we apply it to a enclosed system where other organisms also need nutrients that statement could be considered misinformation as only one aspect of the biome was taken in consideration.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It’s just morning here in the United Kingdom, misinformation it’s all about perspective there is statements that are true alone although in the big picture may not be the same. One that I commonly see is the stripping of nutrients to starve algae. On its own this statement is true, algae can’t survive for a long period of time without nutrients, this statement alone is most likely true. if we apply it to a enclosed system where other organisms also need nutrients that statement could be considered misinformation as only one aspect of the biome was taken in consideration.

I agree there are complexities sometimes but there are also a lot of simple statements made that should be noted are from personal observation or just opinions.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

It’s just morning here in the United Kingdom, misinformation it’s all about perspective there is statements that are true alone although in the big picture may not be the same. One that I commonly see is the stripping of nutrients to starve algae. On its own this statement is true, algae can’t survive for a long period of time without nutrients, this statement alone is most likely true. if we apply it to a enclosed system where other organisms also need nutrients that statement could be considered misinformation as only one aspect of the biome was taken in consideration.

I'd like to give more specific examples of some of the blanket statements I've heard recently but these days the people who said them might get offended even if I didnt say who they were or say anything insulting. I've heard that in the past people had a little tougher skin and weren't so easily offended but I'm in my mid 20s and from my experience people get personally offended by simple things such as using a statement they made as an example.

 

[Redneckgearhead]

I'd like to give more specific examples of some of the blanket statements I've heard recently but these days the people who said them might get offended even if I didnt say who they were or say anything insulting. I've heard that in the past people had a little tougher skin and weren't so easily offended but I'm in my mid 20s and from my experience people get personally offended by simple things such as using a statement they made as an example.

Never worry about offending. Being offended seems to have made people feel they're right for no other reason than they are offended. But realize, this is the internet, statements are made on the daily, there are bound to be some wrong ones in there.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Never worry about offending. Being offended seems to have made people feel they're right for no other reason than they are offended. But realize, this is the internet, statements are made on the daily, there are bound to be some wrong ones in there.

I just don't want to get banned. In my everyday life I couldn't care less who gets offended by my opinions (not talking about insulting people directly or anything like that). That's their personal issue. I would love to elaborate further on people's fragility but don't want to turn this into a philosophical post because that would take us off topic a little...

 

[52728299]

First of all in this day and age I first have to state this is aimed to offend nobody and is not intended to offend in any way. This is something I do, however , feel is important for someone to say and since nobody else has said it yet I will. I THINK a lot of misinformation gets started on internet forums and this one is no exception. The way it starts (I think) is from people unintentionally making claims from anecdotal evidence which sound like and are presented as if they are facts supported by empirical data. Another primary source is from people making blanket statements regarding various organisms which are not supported by the currently accepted scientific research (maybe in the same genus for example) which actually have significant variations in the real world. This is something I've encountered multiple times here and although taxonomy does group organisms together based on traits, it does so based upon VERY specific similarities and not by making blanket statements formed over the course of 5 minutes. Because people commonly fail to mention that their statements are opinions or gathered from personal experience and not scientific research or empirical data there are almost certainly people who see the statement and take it as a fact and later repeat what they heard in the same way and spread it further.
Also sometimes we just don't know the answer to a question we've been asked. It DOESN'T MAKE YOU dumb because you don't know the answer. It's perfectly fine and honest to say "I don't know" or something similar. I've seen countless times people provide answers that simply aren't true because they just don't want to admit to not knowing. Another thing I see people do sometimes is add a lot of qualifiers in their answer to try to make it sound like their previously untrue statement is true at times no matter how rare it may be. There's nothing wrong in simply admitting you don't know or acknowledging something you previously said is incorrect instead of trying to justify it.

NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better.

The purpose of this lengthy post is to #1 make new members aware they should be trusting research backed by evidence and make them aware there are many opinions shared in this hobby that are simply opinions and not fact and #2 to encourage people to be a little more conscious about claims they make and if they're opinions to state that or imply it in some way.

It's midday here but know it's the middle of the night for most people and do feel there is importance in trying to avoid the spread of misinformation so I may bump the thread a little later.

R2R is a great resource we have. Let's keep it that way and even improve by letting people know the level of reliability of information being spread on the site.

It's 230am here and I'm reading this because I struggle to sleep. But nice post I bet it echoes the thoughts of a lot of the more experty members here. I think I do ok at making it obvious when sharing opinions. I'll try and be more mindful of it tho. I should just have a badge that says "not an expert" lol

 

[ying yang]

Yeah what you say happens,I try my best to say " I think " or " I've read" or " to best off my knowledge " and try to sometimes finish with " it's always best to do your own research ,and find out yourself " which if someone says to me that,then it's OK as often I'm sceptical or would like second opinions,but some just want an answer there and then,which we all can can get annoyed ,and as to offended,maybe older generations are " tougher" skinned,I often think about this and think off my grandma who was a war baby and she came across as cold sometimes but I felt she had toughest skin person I knew,but everybody's upbringing and circumstances are different and molds us into the people we become.
Aslong as we try our best not to offend people and apologise if we believe or gets brought to our attention we did/said wrong them we on right track ^_^
I also think someone who isn't easily offended but having a bad stressful day then may become more sensitive then feel they being offended.
I just try to remember " it's nice to be nice " and what's right is right " ha ha

But yeah I agree with just about everything you said ,especially the thing about not knowing answer but giving an answer anyway as feel the need to answer ,which I often get that feeling ,but then we got to think if give an answer knowingly knowing its wrong or just a guess,then someone can believe it then have problems, so we need be our own referees and catch ourselves and add " I think " or " I believe " or end with maybe best to check up on this ,but I often do another thing which is tag someone more experienced thinking they may have better understanding ^_^ ( which Is easy way out and a way to not give bad information)

 

[Paul B]

maybe older generations are " tougher" skinned,I often think about this and think off my grandma who was a war baby and she came across as cold sometimes but I felt she had toughest skin person I knew,but everybody's upbringing and circumstances are different and molds us into the people we become.

Older generations (like myself) have much tougher skins than most of the young millennials we encounter here on forums and "IMO" the slightest thing can really offend some people.

I am old and also fought in a war. I am not a war baby like your Grand Mother but I was born right after WW2. It would be impossible to offend me, especially on a fish, hobby forum.

This is a hobby and the definition of a hobby is a pass time, something to fill your hours with enjoyment. It is not something to argue about because it is not that important to anyone except maybe some fish which by the way I eat almost every day.

 

[52728299]

Eh I feel as if we are somewhat bolstering some kind of stereotype.. wasn't the op post partly about blanket statements now we are doing that with "old people have thick skin, young people have thin skin" the only fact that happens with your skin as you age is how wrinkly you become.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Eh I feel as if we are somewhat bolstering some kind of stereotype.. wasn't the op post partly about blanket statements now we are doing that with "old people have thick skin, young people have thin skin" the only fact that happens with your skin as you age is how wrinkly you become.

We have gotten a little off topic now haha...that's why I didn't want to get philosophical in my previous post about getting offended...I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the "offense" thing. I was just trying to explain that if it weren't for that, I'd give specific examples I've seen of misinformation starting

 

[brandon429]

What if someone is presenting you new information they've discovered, and you disagree since it's not from a book that someone else discovered


Does that make the information wrong if it shocks you, or you feel the new discovery is wrong?

How will you know if new information given to you is wrong or right if you're only accepting published info as the truth?

Here's some anecdotal discoveries once stated as untrue in the forums since these works didn't come from a published article


Peroxide dosing is #1

Touted as a tank wrecker by staunch chemists, a widespread chemical killer of all that's good in reefing

And after ten years now of dosing it, it's a permanent tool in the hobby box upgraded now for fish disease prevention, in addition to myriad tank dosing uses for invasion control.

And if gatekeepers who only accept published media as truth had their way, it wouldn't exist as a tool to help so many.

There's 20 more examples of anecdote being better, faster, more adaptive than slow slow peer reviews and formal published material

And yes there's wrong info too in the mix. Any anecdote that comes with a thread of 300 reefs doing a new claimed action X is probably on the verge of becoming new truth, just like peroxide did

Anecdote begins to move into truth when scores of reefs can be aligned and documented and inspected all around a central theme.

Just like pico reefs did (the large tankers used to post links to coral allelopathy as the reason a pico reef must be fake or plumbed to be working)

There's ways to misuse formal peer review information in order to suppress discoveries. Formalists are always trying to hold down the anecdote brother, but bulk pattern will always be a faster, stronger driver of change in the hobby. Formal peer reviews are slow and ten years dated behind the point of discovery

 

[CrunchyBananas]

First of all in this day and age I first have to state this is aimed to offend nobody and is not intended to offend in any way. This is something I do, however , feel is important for someone to say and since nobody else has said it yet I will. I THINK a lot of misinformation gets started on internet forums and this one is no exception. The way it starts (I think) is from people unintentionally making claims from anecdotal evidence which sound like and are presented as if they are facts supported by empirical data. Another primary source is from people making blanket statements regarding various organisms which are not supported by the currently accepted scientific research (maybe in the same genus for example) which actually have significant variations in the real world. This is something I've encountered multiple times here and although taxonomy does group organisms together based on traits, it does so based upon VERY specific similarities and not by making blanket statements formed over the course of 5 minutes. Because people commonly fail to mention that their statements are opinions or gathered from personal experience and not scientific research or empirical data there are almost certainly people who see the statement and take it as a fact and later repeat what they heard in the same way and spread it further.
Also sometimes we just don't know the answer to a question we've been asked. It DOESN'T MAKE YOU dumb because you don't know the answer. It's perfectly fine and honest to say "I don't know" or something similar. I've seen countless times people provide answers that simply aren't true because they just don't want to admit to not knowing. Another thing I see people do sometimes is add a lot of qualifiers in their answer to try to make it sound like their previously untrue statement is true at times no matter how rare it may be. There's nothing wrong in simply admitting you don't know or acknowledging something you previously said is incorrect instead of trying to justify it.

NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better.

The purpose of this lengthy post is to #1 make new members aware they should be trusting research backed by evidence and make them aware there are many opinions shared in this hobby that are simply opinions and not fact and #2 to encourage people to be a little more conscious about claims they make and if they're opinions to state that or imply it in some way.

It's midday here but know it's the middle of the night for most people and do feel there is importance in trying to avoid the spread of misinformation so I may bump the thread a little later.

R2R is a great resource we have. Let's keep it that way and even improve by letting people know the level of reliability of information being spread on the site.

I see this super often on FB as well as on here. The very common stereotype I see is the ~1year hobbyist who's seen a bunch of BRS videos thinking they're experts and know everything, despite having very little actual experience. After time, some failures, maybe a tank crash, its then that the realization of how little one may know often sets in.

In the end, we're building underwater, tropical ecosystems in elevated glass boxes, every little nuance makes a difference. I (and I think most everybody on here should) stick to giving advice I have experience with or can directly link the source. Otherwise, the answer is: I don't know OR I'll look into that.

 

[Mikey-D]

If I may add from someone very new coming into the hobby and wanting to be succesfull while very much a realist and know that there will be problems along the road while my tank establishes itself. I will say that not the misinformation but the amount of methods there are and while what has worked for one may not work for another and how many differet methods there are, i.e cycle with food, dont QT, dose manual or auto, lights on/off during a cycle. These are all great but what I have witnessed is the way that an answer may be giving and someone comes and trys to discredit that answer because it wasnt the way they did it and the way they did it is the only way.

Im not going after anybody in particular and have never had this happen to me but I have read many forums and will continue to read, its just an observation of the type of information I have seen, i.e My opinion.

 

[stevolough]

Obviously there are some very experienced reefers on this site who are very helpful. There are also a lot of people who truly want to help. And then there are some who want to help but might not be giving the correct advice. This site is just one resource. Just like in politics you need to do your research and then make an educated decision

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

What if someone is presenting you new information they've discovered, and you disagree since it's not from a book that someone else discovered


Does that make the information wrong if it shocks you, or you feel the new discovery is wrong?

How will you know if new information given to you is wrong or right if you're only accepting published info as the truth

Well I'd assume if they're presenting new information it still is supported by evidence. I'd just ask for the evidence or a link to it. I'd ask where/who discovered it and do the research before making up my mind. If it's brand new though, I wouldn't see any harm in them noting that it's a new discovery. I wouldn't immediately discard it just because its new. I would look into it and decide for myself if I believed it. I don't only accept published info as true and my post was more about how the poster presents the info.

 

[ying yang]

Older generations (like myself) have much tougher skins than most of the young millennials we encounter here on forums and "IMO" the slightest thing can really offend some people.

I am old and also fought in a war. I am not a war baby like your Grand Mother but I was born right after WW2. It would be impossible to offend me, especially on a fish, hobby forum.

This is a hobby and the definition of a hobby is a pass time, something to fill your hours with enjoyment. It is not something to argue about because it is not that important to anyone except maybe some fish which by the way I eat almost every day.

What I take away from your post is " life is to short to worry about the little things " which agree with totally,as much bigger things to worry about and use our energy on.
I tell myself ( and others shhhhh ) that no point in arguing about such trivial things and life to short blah blah blah and not easily offended,but and a big but ,that not entirely true as only 2 weekends ago,we had bbq in our garden and Mrs family came over,about 20 or so,I told Mrs sure I cook the food and all that and help set up garden with chairs and borrowed some extra ones and table off a friend who hires them out,and under no circumstances would I stand on my own cooking food yet again as usually happens they go in house with bit off wind or rubbish like this,we'll my stubbornness kept me "in the sun" where set up the chairs with my kid and neighbours kid in our big paddling pool ,and her mum / sister comes first and automatically grabbed chairs and said sun far to hot and going sit around side off building in shade for little while then off course others came and sat with her mum and sister until all 20 odd guests in shade and 20 metres away from me,2 hours go by with me thinking and getting mad in my head and time to do bbq,I'm like nah sod it,you lot sort out and spat my dummy out,don't often get like this but I think my stubbornness cos I said it can't happen again and it did ,I acted like child ha ha,
So yeah getting off topic but still on topic with my previous thread saying people can have bad days so need be weary off this when we post.
Just fwiw don't usually act like above and I know trying to justify my actions but live in england where not usually that hot ( did recently have heatwave but not at bbq) and I struggle with my mrs family even though been with her 14 years,just seem to act differently than I'm used to but we all different right pffft

But I try my best

 

[CrunchyBananas]

Well I'd assume if they're presenting new information it still is supported by evidence. I'd just ask for the evidence or a link to it. I'd ask where/who discovered it and do the research before making up my mind. If it's brand new though, I wouldn't see any harm in them noting that it's a new discovery. I wouldn't immediately discard it just because its new. I would look into it and decide for myself if I believed it. I don't only accept published info as true and my post was more about how the poster presents the info.

This is the approach, I watched the reef moonshiners method and the results for almost two years before testing it out myself, didn’t want it to kind of fizzle out like triton.

 

[Dan_P]

First of all in this day and age I first have to state this is aimed to offend nobody and is not intended to offend in any way. This is something I do, however , feel is important for someone to say and since nobody else has said it yet I will. I THINK a lot of misinformation gets started on internet forums and this one is no exception. The way it starts (I think) is from people unintentionally making claims from anecdotal evidence which sound like and are presented as if they are facts supported by empirical data. Another primary source is from people making blanket statements regarding various organisms which are not supported by the currently accepted scientific research (maybe in the same genus for example) which actually have significant variations in the real world. This is something I've encountered multiple times here and although taxonomy does group organisms together based on traits, it does so based upon VERY specific similarities and not by making blanket statements formed over the course of 5 minutes. Because people commonly fail to mention that their statements are opinions or gathered from personal experience and not scientific research or empirical data there are almost certainly people who see the statement and take it as a fact and later repeat what they heard in the same way and spread it further.
Also sometimes we just don't know the answer to a question we've been asked. It DOESN'T MAKE YOU dumb because you don't know the answer. It's perfectly fine and honest to say "I don't know" or something similar. I've seen countless times people provide answers that simply aren't true because they just don't want to admit to not knowing. Another thing I see people do sometimes is add a lot of qualifiers in their answer to try to make it sound like their previously untrue statement is true at times no matter how rare it may be. There's nothing wrong in simply admitting you don't know or acknowledging something you previously said is incorrect instead of trying to justify it.

NOTE: I explicitly said that this is what I think happens implying it's my opinion. Also, I'm only human too and sure I've made careless statements but am trying my best to do better.

The purpose of this lengthy post is to #1 make new members aware they should be trusting research backed by evidence and make them aware there are many opinions shared in this hobby that are simply opinions and not fact and #2 to encourage people to be a little more conscious about claims they make and if they're opinions to state that or imply it in some way.

It's midday here but know it's the middle of the night for most people and do feel there is importance in trying to avoid the spread of misinformation so I may bump the thread a little later.

R2R is a great resource we have. Let's keep it that way and even improve by letting people know the level of reliability of information being spread on the site.

Nice post!

Misinformation, generating and accepting, is part of being human. The real problem for humanity was the creation of the internet. Now it is quite simple to spread misinformation by accident or for a reason. Generating ignorance is a business that has always existed, but now anyone can do it on a massive scale. Visiting human supplement and conspiracy theory sites are examples of ways you can become more ignorant of reality.

R2R is certainly a friendly forum for asking advice. I feel the moderators do a good job calling attention to misinformation provided by members. Members are a second line of defense for calling out potential nonsense. That said, R2R is still social media and that means there is no qualifications to post, no way to know the qualifications of the person posting, nor are there requirements for supporting evidence. This means buyer beware of the advice and information posted.

 

[brandon429]

caveat reeftor