TheWB’s IM Lagoon 50

[TheWB]

Tested N and P again today after a little management and a water change over the weekend. N is up to 6.9 from 2.9 and P is down to .05 from .10 so both are heading in the right directions. Ideally I’d like to get N to about 10 with P around .02 or .03 and then try to manage that level with a ml or two of Nopox daily to try and keep it stable. I don’t want to chase numbers but some stability around those parameters would be good. Maybe the couple of things in the tank that have not been happy lately such as the anemone would benefit.

 

[TheWB]

Tested parameters again today. Nitrate is up to 7.3 from 6.9 since the last test. Phosphate is down from .05 to .02. Alk is up to 9.7 from 9.2. Here’s the thing though, I didn’t do a water change and I haven’t really used much Phosphat-e and no Nopox or changed my seemingly heavy feeding habits or added any new corals that would use nutrients. There no real algae growing in the system either, little dusting on the glass but for the most part it’s unnoticeable. The Alk being up could just be the time of day, it’s always between 9 and 10 no matter what I do. So the question is, where’s the phosphate going or is it just in the margin of error for the test? Not really concerned about it, just find it curious.

 

[jcolliii]

Hmmm... I suspect my PO4 usage is due to coral growth and it being the limiting nutrient in my system. If my PO4 gets too low, I notice that algae growth increases and coral growth drops off somewhat. That's in my system tho, and what people report anecdotally with PO4 seems to vary widely. If your corals are growing well, that could be part of it... how accurate is your test? Can you reliably repeat your test results?

I definitely did notice that when I started dosing PO4 to bring my nonexistant levels up to detectable, there was an initial period where I saw much less rise than expected based on my chemistry calculations. That was somewhat odd...

 

[TheWB]

Hmmm... I suspect my PO4 usage is due to coral growth and it being the limiting nutrient in my system. If my PO4 gets too low, I notice that algae growth increases and coral growth drops off somewhat. That's in my system tho, and what people report anecdotally with PO4 seems to vary widely. If your corals are growing well, that could be part of it... how accurate is your test? Can you reliably repeat your test results?

I definitely did notice that when I started dosing PO4 to bring my nonexistant levels up to detectable, there was an initial period where I saw much less rise than expected based on my chemistry calculations. That was somewhat odd...

Some of my corals grow or at least look good (All the Zoas, caulastraea, branching cyphastrea, Frogspawn, torches, goni) while others lately have died ( 3 different micromusas with a 4th not doing well and a Duncan that stays closed up about half the time). Encrusting corals have never done well in this tank. The rainbow bubble tip anemone has also been hiding. Something is definitely out of whack but there are no obvious problems with parameters. I guess an N level of 7.3 and P level of .02 could be considered low? Alk between 9 and 10 always. Last Calcium was 420, didn’t check it today, ran out of time. Nothing out of the ordinary from the ICP test back at the beginning of August.
I use Hanna Checkers and the calibration was recently checked on PO4 and Alk so I don’t think I have testing errors. It’s like nothings really “wrong” and the fish, shrimp and most of the corals are good, but there’s been some coral losses with no clear explanation and I was really expecting higher PO4 on the latest test Just based on recent feeding and not doing a water change or using any chemical reduction methods. I just thought that was a weird PO4 result under the circumstances.

 

[jcolliii]

I don't think any of those numbers look low. Anything above 5 for NO3 is fine AFAIAC, and 0.025 or so for PO4 is my target. Mag? Do you dose anything for traces? Any tingling sensations when you put your hand in the water? Ever catch your shrimp? Do you think that is the cause of all three of your coral losses?

 

[TheWB]

I don't think any of those numbers look low. Anything above 5 for NO3 is fine AFAIAC, and 0.025 or so for PO4 is my target. Mag? Do you dose anything for traces? Any tingling sensations when you put your hand in the water? Ever catch your shrimp? Do you think that is the cause of all three of your coral losses?

Mag was 1314 mg/l on the ICP test so that was fine back in Aug. I don’t have a Mag test kit. I have the Red Sea ABCD additives that are dosed based on Calcium uptake but I’ve been reluctant to dose much of that without doing a run of tests over a week or so to see what the changes look like and I just haven’t had time to do that lately. No tingling sensations so I think I’m good on electrical issues. I am curious about PH though. It’s always between 8.1 and 8.3 on the Apex probe but calibration is always an issue with those. I also have the Hanna PH checker but it’s not calibrated and difficult to keep in working condition because the solution to keep the electrode wet always crystallizes and drys out. We keep a window cracked about 12 ft from the tank and the skimmer keeps things aerated but I sometimes wonder if Ph is lower than I think it is.

Have not caught the shrimp but I don’t think they are the issue. I think they were just picking at tissue that was already dying. They are not messing with the micro that is shrinking up now and two of the others plus the blasto are still in the tank with some issue on them and are also being ignored. I watch at night after lights out in the moonlight and the shrimp don‘t appear to have interest in those corals anymore. I can’t watch all the time but I’m pretty confident there’s nothing going on there anymore.

 

[jcolliii]

Hmmm... if not the shrimp, nor introduced pests... and you do w/c's fairly often, so probably not traces.

Well, I am going to advocate for a switch in chemistry augmentation to AFR. If nothing else it will help simplify dosing. It's a single additive and it's balanced for uptake by corals. So, when they take in ALK, the Ca, Mg, and traces are all taken in at a balanced rate so that when you add the amount of AFR necessary to bring the ALK back up, the Ca, Mg, and traces are all brought back up to the same levels they were at as well with just the one addition. The chemicals are non-interfering with each other, so that's not a thing. I have periodically tested my Ca and Mg and it is *remarkable* how stable those have been. They obviously drop as ALK levels do, so all you really have to monitor is one parameter to have an understanding what the others are doing. Honestly though, I have not tested Ca in 8 month because it never varied by more than 10ppm.

I'd suggest calibrating your probe just to make sure your pH is where you think it is. You can get a box of the pinpoint solutions on Amazon for less than 20 bucks for 10 pouches of each standard.

I forget - do you scrub CO2? I mentioned CO2 scrubbing and AFR as having been game changers for me in that thread on such things recently, and, really, those two changes were absolutely worthwhile in my system. BRS's CO2 media is pretty cheap, lasts a month, and a single pouch fills one of their excellent and fairly inexpensive media reactors which feeds the air intake on my skimmer. I run that through the winter and then don't replace the media until closing up the windows again.

Also, I think I asked before - you target feed your LPS? I know my acans get really grumpy when they don't get fed for more than a week or so. They love a thick, pasty application of reef roids drizzled on them with one of those baster-like coral feeding thingies.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Tested parameters again today. Nitrate is up to 7.3 from 6.9 since the last test. Phosphate is down from .05 to .02. Alk is up to 9.7 from 9.2. Here’s the thing though, I didn’t do a water change and I haven’t really used much Phosphat-e and no Nopox or changed my seemingly heavy feeding habits or added any new corals that would use nutrients. There no real algae growing in the system either, little dusting on the glass but for the most part it’s unnoticeable. The Alk being up could just be the time of day, it’s always between 9 and 10 no matter what I do. So the question is, where’s the phosphate going or is it just in the margin of error for the test? Not really concerned about it, just find it curious.

i think your numbers look great, and remember all those readings for the test kits are likely within margins of error so there might not be any change at all to your water parameters.

 

[TheWB]

Hmmm... if not the shrimp, nor introduced pests... and you do w/c's fairly often, so probably not traces.

Well, I am going to advocate for a switch in chemistry augmentation to AFR. If nothing else it will help simplify dosing. It's a single additive and it's balanced for uptake by corals. So, when they take in ALK, the Ca, Mg, and traces are all taken in at a balanced rate so that when you add the amount of AFR necessary to bring the ALK back up, the Ca, Mg, and traces are all brought back up to the same levels they were at as well with just the one addition. The chemicals are non-interfering with each other, so that's not a thing. I have periodically tested my Ca and Mg and it is *remarkable* how stable those have been. They obviously drop as ALK levels do, so all you really have to monitor is one parameter to have an understanding what the others are doing. Honestly though, I have not tested Ca in 8 month because it never varied by more than 10ppm.

I'd suggest calibrating your probe just to make sure your pH is where you think it is. You can get a box of the pinpoint solutions on Amazon for less than 20 bucks for 10 pouches of each standard.

I forget - do you scrub CO2? I mentioned CO2 scrubbing and AFR as having been game changers for me in that thread on such things recently, and, really, those two changes were absolutely worthwhile in my system. BRS's CO2 media is pretty cheap, lasts a month, and a single pouch fills one of their excellent and fairly inexpensive media reactors which feeds the air intake on my skimmer. I run that through the winter and then don't replace the media until closing up the windows again.

Also, I think I asked before - you target feed your LPS? I know my acans get really grumpy when they don't get fed for more than a week or so. They love a thick, pasty application of reef roids drizzled on them with one of those baster-like coral feeding thingies.

The problem with dosing AFR or anything else is that my Alk is always between 9 and 10,it’s never been under 9. I don’t feel like the tank is using much Alk so I’ve been reluctant to dose anything for fear of raising trace elements too high, basically dosing for no reason. I got the Red Sea ABCD because there’s Iodine in Part A and that showed up as low in my ICP test. That gets dosed based on Calcium but the tank doesn’t use much of that either, perimeters are pretty stable. The issue is that while the LPS corals generally look good they don’t grow much. The big Frogspawn and the Duncan (even though it’s struggling now) are the only ones that have ever taken off Compared to where they started. That blasto which recently lost two of its three heads had the same three for 2 years. I’ve had Favia x 2 and a chalice also wither and die and now the micros. Something in my tank is limiting story coral growth with a few exceptions. The Zoas are all fine and growing but it’s almost impossible not to grow those. The variables now are PH and Lighting. Last time I pulled the ph probe, dried it and just stuck it in some 7.0 test solution. It read 6.9. I know they drift but I felt like it was pretty stable. It’s been several months though so recalibration is in order. I’m running a default LPS setting on my lights but PAR has never been verified in my tank so that’s on the to do list.

I don’t scrub CO2 but that’s also something to consider, see if the reading, regardless of what it is, goes up.

I do occasionally feed reef roids but more as a broadcast with some targeting of the LPS but not as a paste, more like a cloud over the top. I also try to feed them some LRS reef frenzy when I feed frozen. I haven’t been feeding either of those as much lately so there’s another possible variable. I’m trying not to fuel an algae breakout and some is actually starting to appear again, I just noticed some around the Armor of God Zoas which is where the worst of the outbreak always occurs.

 

[TheWB]

i think your numbers look great, and remember all those readings for the test kits are likely within margins of error so there might not be any change at all to your water parameters.

That’s just it, the numbers all seem pretty good and within the margins of error, yet there’s something off. Not wildly off, most of the tanks inhabitants are fine but the ones that aren’t have ended up dying lately and long term certain corals just don’t really grow, even if some of them look really good. It’s a weird situation. I feel like I’m complaining when things are mostly fine, just can’t put my finger on whatever it is that seems to be limiting better success with some of the LPS, especially the encrusting ones.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

That’s just it, the numbers all seem pretty good and within the margins of error, yet there’s something off. Not wildly off, most of the tanks inhabitants are fine but the ones that aren’t have endEd up dying lately and long term certain corals just don’t really grow, even if some of them look really good. It’s a weird situation. I feel like I’m complaining when things are mostly fine, just can’t put my finger on whatever it is that seems to be limiting better success with some of the LPS, especially the encrusting ones.

Sounds like we're in a similar spot. I feel like I shouldn't complain because with a few exceptions the tank doesn't look bad, but at the same time, something's not quite right.

I'll echo @jcolliii about pH, I feel like this is the thing that might be the parameter that gets things rolling. Once I got my CO2 scrubber working my alk started falling and then I was able to start dosing. Still too early in the process to say how much of an effect it's having on coral growth but it feel like I might be on the right track.

I'll also give a +1 to target feeding the LPS. My big duncan was receding, with tissue loss around the base. I started making sure it got some frozen food a few times a week and the tissue loss stopped and it started to open big again. My blasto wellsi has been doing poorly recently with a scary amount of tissue loss so now I'm target feeding it (hoping it's not too late) and the last two days it's mouth looks healthier again so I'm going to guess I was starving the poor guy. Perhaps some of these guys aren't as good at grabbing food out of the water column as others are.

 

[TheWB]

Sounds like we're in a similar spot. I feel like I shouldn't complain because with a few exceptions the tank doesn't look bad, but at the same time, something's not quite right.

I'll echo @jcolliii about pH, I feel like this is the thing that might be the parameter that gets things rolling. Once I got my CO2 scrubber working my alk started falling and then I was able to start dosing. Still too early in the process to say how much of an effect it's having on coral growth but it feel like I might be on the right track.

I'll also give a +1 to target feeding the LPS. My big duncan was receding, with tissue loss around the base. I started making sure it got some frozen food a few times a week and the tissue loss stopped and it started to open big again. My blasto wellsi has been doing poorly recently with a scary amount of tissue loss so now I'm target feeding it (hoping it's not too late) and the last two days it's mouth looks healthier again so I'm going to guess I was starving the poor guy. Perhaps some of these guys aren't as good at grabbing food out of the water column as others are.

A scrubber is probably worth a shot. Since we have the same skimmer what adaptor did you get to transition the bigger tubing from the reactor to the skimmers air intake? Once I figure that out I’ll order the scrubber.

 

[Calm Blue Ocean]

A scrubber is probably worth a shot. Since we have the same skimmer what adaptor did you get to transition the bigger tubing from the reactor to the skimmers air intake? Once I figure that out I’ll order the scrubber.

Ah, to be able to tell you that I had some sort of beautifully engineered and elegant solution. Instead, I present my hacked together "let's just get this going and I'll clean it up later" solution!

I use a Two Little Fishies Phosban reactor for my scrubber but I think it's about the same volume as the BRS CO2 scrubber. I ordered the TLF CDX adaptor (1/2" to 3/8") to go from the reactor to a piece of tubing that I scavenged off the silencer of my Tunze 9004 and connect the whole thing to the silencer of the skimmer. Beauty!

 

[TheWB]

Ah, to be able to tell you that I had some sort of beautifully engineered and elegant solution. Instead, I present my hacked together "let's just get this going and I'll clean it up later" solution!

I use a Two Little Fishies Phosban reactor for my scrubber but I think it's about the same volume as the BRS CO2 scrubber. I ordered the TLF CDX adaptor (1/2" to 3/8") to go from the reactor to a piece of tubing that I scavenged off the silencer of my Tunze 9004 and connect the whole thing to the silencer of the skimmer. Beauty!

Thanks for the pic and the info. I’ve ordered a reactor and some parts from BRS. We’ll see if it helps.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

That’s just it, the numbers all seem pretty good and within the margins of error, yet there’s something off. Not wildly off, most of the tanks inhabitants are fine but the ones that aren’t have ended up dying lately and long term certain corals just don’t really grow, even if some of them look really good. It’s a weird situation. I feel like I’m complaining when things are mostly fine, just can’t put my finger on whatever it is that seems to be limiting better success with some of the LPS, especially the encrusting ones.

Totally hear you. That's frustrating. I think we only know a little fraction of what the heck is going on in there.

Have you added new corals lately?

I've had a couple instances of STN/RTN on sps and some brown jelly going after some LPS a few days to a few weeks after adding new corals. Seems other corals can stagnate during that time. When it is seems it is spreading, i'll remove the new corals to a qt/hospital system to try to deal with or treat. If problems persist in the tank, my feeling is that it is micro-biological. Total shot in the dark, but feeling like i should do something, i'll treat the tank with chemi-clean or cyrpo. Then a large water change or two. I have not had negative impact from these anti-biotics in the tank.

The problems resolves itself, whether anti-biotics help or not i do not know. I kind of think of nuking the tank with anti-biotics as knocking back bacteria populations as a whole, hopefully non-harmful bacteria has a chance gain dominance after the treatment. Total guesswork...

Now that i run a KH director, it seems drops in Alk are correlated to some these instances as well. Maybe focus in on that parameter if looking to stabilize anything.

Ultimately, i think until a reef tank is established--meaning it's growing large colonies for a good amount of time--however long it takes the tank to get to that point, these mystery problems will persist and its not really our "fault"--just part of the hobby and challenge and allure. I don't think they go away, just become less frequent.

My philosophy has been to add lots of corals at the get go in hopes to get a strong micro-biological population going as fast a possible--and if it looks like a reef tank--maybe it will act like one! Try to keep parameters stable. But i've definitely has losses. Tinkering too much i think makes things worse, so sometimes i'll just not do anything drastic or new.

 

[TheWB]

Totally hear you. That's frustrating. I think we only know a little fraction of what the heck is going on in there.

Have you added new corals lately?

I've had a couple instances of STN/RTN on sps and some brown jelly going after some LPS a few days to a few weeks after adding new corals. Seems other corals can stagnate during that time. When it is seems it is spreading, i'll remove the new corals to a qt/hospital system to try to deal with or treat. If problems persist in the tank, my feeling is that it is micro-biological. Total shot in the dark, but feeling like i should do something, i'll treat the tank with chemi-clean or cyrpo. Then a large water change or two. I have not had negative impact from these anti-biotics in the tank.

The problems resolves itself, whether anti-biotics help or not i do not know. I kind of think of nuking the tank with anti-biotics as knocking back bacteria populations as a whole, hopefully non-harmful bacteria has a chance gain dominance after the treatment. Total guesswork...

Now that i run a KH director, it seems drops in Alk are correlated to some these instances as well. Maybe focus in on that parameter if looking to stabilize anything.

Ultimately, i think until a reef tank is established--meaning it's growing large colonies for a good amount of time--however long it takes the tank to get to that point, these mystery problems will persist and its not really our "fault"--just part of the hobby and challenge and allure. I don't think they go away, just become less frequent.

My philosophy has been to add lots of corals at the get go in hopes to get a strong micro-biological population going as fast a possible--and if it looks like a reef tank--maybe it will act like one! Try to keep parameters stable. But i've definitely has losses. Tinkering too much i think makes things worse, so sometimes i'll just not do anything drastic or new.

I really tried to go slow with the establishment of the bio filter, with fish stocking, and with coral additions. I don’t have room for a QT system anywhere so theres really no place to move anything out of the tank. That’s one of the reasons why I’ve tried to be very careful about what is added.
Maybe I would have been better off putting more corals in sooner to add to the diversity and nutrient uptake, got any frags you want to sell me?
The goal was slow and steady stability but I can totally see how a lack of diversity in the beginning can lead to bad stuff gaining a foothold when it doesn’t have as much competition. I’m going to try a CO2 scrubber and I added some of the Red Sea additives after a Calcium test this morning (430 on Red Sea kit) so I’ll be interested to see if things perk up over the next couple of days.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

Yeah, maybe i'm in the minority, but i think the instant tank thing, as to corals and assuming the ammonia cycle is complete (rock die off is over), has better logic to it than going slowly. When i brew beer or ferment anything---a large starter culture is always far better. Pitching small amounts of yeast--just leaves the fermentation open to bacterial contamination that will ruin the entire batch--that bacteria once in there--never goes away, you just dump and start over. I think of a reef tank the same way.... Add a sh** ton of live rock or corals at first and that's your large "starter" culture.

I've got some frags you can have, not anything crazy great that is fragable at the moment, and not much a seller... we never really sold frags between hobbyists when i started this hobby in the 2000's, and i'm kinda put off by the practice now.

I'd plan your tank now--thinking of corals then just get as many of those as you can and add. Local is better if no pests i think because i think shipping stress is what causes corals to start to decline, and then i think it can spread into the tank.

 

[TheWB]

Yeah, maybe i'm in the minority, but i think the instant tank thing, as to corals and assuming the ammonia cycle is complete (rock die off is over), has better logic to it than going slowly. When i brew beer or ferment anything---a large starter culture is always far better. Pitching small amounts of yeast--just leaves the fermentation open to bacterial contamination that will ruin the entire batch--that bacteria once in there--never goes away, you just dump and start over. I think of a reef tank the same way.... Add a sh** ton of live rock or corals at first and that's your large "starter" culture.

I've got some frags you can have, not anything crazy great that is fragable at the moment, and not much a seller... we never really sold frags between hobbyists when i started this hobby in the 2000's, and i'm kinda put off by the practice now.

I'd plan your tank now--thinking of corals then just get as many of those as you can and add. Local is better if no pests i think because i think shipping stress is what causes corals to start to decline, and then i think it can spread into the tank.

That makes a lot of sense what your saying about the big starter culture theory. I started with dry rock so there wasn’t any head start on bacteria or diversity other than whatever I’ve put in there over time. I really should look into getting a nano pack of gulf rock or something similar and throw it in.

Thats a very kind offer on the frags, I was really only kidding though, didn't mean to put you on the spot . I’ve actually never traded frags with anyone, I’ve never known anyone else who reefs and I’ve also never fragged anything myself. Not sure how I’ve made it through 4 tanks in this hobby without ever doing that. I wouldn’t mind trading a cup of sand with you though, as a way to increase diversity if that’s something you’d be open to.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

You're totally local and welcome to any frags i have available... Just message me when you have time, i am around weekends usually (working) and don't take work consults on Monday's or Tuesdays, so those are typically good days. I have seachem media that i keep in the sump that may be more convenient and maybe more populated with bacteria than sand... I removed most of my sand anyway and have recently replaced it with calcium reactor media, which i much prefer to sand (for now anyway). This current 50 gallon tank is not super old, but it has actual live rock from another's system that had been running for a long time, and never dried out, so the diversity is pretty good... i see sponges and tube worms and random critters.. I assume there is good bacteria populations populating everything from that stuff.

 

[jcolliii]

Man, I'm going to have a lot of stuff available as well when I do my rescape. Big honking hunks of a really nice bright red-pink cap, maybe some Anacropora (not at all a tough genus - likes a lot of light, but otherwise don't do anything to it) and probably some bubblegum digi and maybe others too. I have zero pests (but a few small patches of GHA at the moment as my PO4 is a bit low). Pay the shipping and I'm willing to send them off to you. PM me when I am doing my rescape and I'll let you know what I can send. I am not sure where to get the low and slow heat packs though.

I also periodically add additional bacterial cultures as well, and I think that as some strains outcompete others, periodic re-inoculation might be helpful. It certainly hasn't hurt. As others have indicated I also noticed that when I attained a certain coral biomass, stuff just went...