This aquarium concept challenges your views on microbiology, lets collect and compare answers

[brandon429]

This thread will be used to test common viewpoints from marine aquarists about their filtration bacteria, which in turn vastly regulates how people cycle their aquariums, how long that takes, and by extension directly affects the boundaries people set for themselves when setting up and running a reef tank, responding to challenges etc

I have a scenario I think will cause reefers to change the way they think about bacteria.






my challenge to the most common misunderstanding about filtration bacteria:

found online everywhere, the statement to test is: "Bacteria only grow on surfaces relative to the amounts of ammonia you provide them, if you restrict ammonia at any point, the bacteria growth will stop (and by extension leaving portions of the substrate sterile, uncolonized by aquatic bacteria)"

that statement is probably the most retold statement regarding filtration bacteria in reefing, its repeated online since forums have been online, we can find examples from any year regarding that statement across forums. I think its the #1 misnomer about microbiology we recirculate.

my test concept:

a scientist measures accurately the daily outputs in ammonia from 3 clownfish, and extrapolates that into a dosing solution concentration used to bring up an aquarium of only plenty of dry rock surfaces. All the necessary time and dosing of that amount of ammonia + bottle bac has elapsed, such that the test aquarium is cycled for that level of bioload at the time we deem cycle completed. At no point was the ammonia added to reach above the levels that three fish premeasured would provide in a 24 hour timeframe. the tank is now cycled for our test, to that level of ammonia, free ammonia is zero. they can be fed nicely and the free ammonia never spikes... the surface area is active for this test concept and nobody disagrees this imaginary tank wouldn't cycle under these circumstances.

time to test concepts.

if we took this aquarium and installed ten new canister filters packed with media, and simply left them running for five months straight, while the same fish and feeding and water changes and cleaning of material took place, would the materials in the filters be cycled by month 5? If not, are the filters sterile since no more ammonia was added to the system? Are the filters devoid of nitrifers, since no more ammonia was added, but colonized by another form of bacteria?

if they are cycled, how did bacteria attain feed to cover essentially 10x the original amounts of surface area, without an actual increase in bioloading?

is there a finite number of canister filters, surface area, that you can add into the loop of circulation and the extra media not become seeded given ample time? Whats the limit for new surface area that can be colonized, without ever changing that original 3 fish bioloading limit?

lastly, what if you pull all the filters at once after 8 mos, does the original tank lack the ability to handle its bioload and free ammonia results? Most aquarists are under the impression we must remove surface area in increments, in order to let the other surfaces build up replacement bacteria, if that's the case then instantly removing the 10x canisters is certain to cause a problem, right?

ya'll caption my questions above and input your answers after each one, checking for themes of agreement or dissention in answers

The results w be linked in both the microbiology of cycling thread and the sand rinse thread

 

[brandon429]

the person whose answer I'd like to see @Lasse

I believe this scenario strongly relates to his work experience in fish production/aquaculture.

NanoSapiens your answer is already approved ahead of time

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

This thread will be used to test common viewpoints from marine aquarists about their filtration bacteria, which in turn vastly regulates how people cycle their aquariums, how long that takes, and by extension directly affects the boundaries people set for themselves when setting up and running a reef tank, responding to challenges etc

I have a scenario I think will cause reefers to change the way they think about bacteria.






my challenge to the most common misunderstanding about filtration bacteria:

found online everywhere, the statement to test is: "Bacteria only grow on surfaces relative to the amounts of ammonia you provide them, if you restrict ammonia at any point, the bacteria growth will stop (and by extension leaving portions of the substrate sterile, uncolonized by aquatic bacteria)"

that statement is probably the most retold statement regarding filtration bacteria in reefing, its repeated online since forums have been online, we can find examples from any year regarding that statement across forums. I think its the #1 misnomer about microbiology we recirculate.

my test concept:

a scientist measures accurately the daily outputs in ammonia from 3 clownfish, and extrapolates that into a dosing solution concentration used to bring up an aquarium of only plenty of dry rock surfaces. All the necessary time and dosing of that amount of ammonia + bottle bac has elapsed, such that the test aquarium is cycled for that level of bioload at the time we deem cycle completed. At no point was the ammonia added to reach above the levels that three fish premeasured would provide in a 24 hour timeframe. the tank is now cycled for our test, to that level of ammonia, free ammonia is zero. they can be fed nicely and the free ammonia never spikes... the surface area is active for this test concept and nobody disagrees this imaginary tank wouldn't cycle under these circumstances.

time to test concepts.

if we took this aquarium and installed ten new canister filters packed with media, and simply left them running for five months straight, while the same fish and feeding and water changes and cleaning of material took place, would the materials in the filters be cycled by month 5? If not, are the filters sterile since no more ammonia was added to the system? Are the filters devoid of nitrifers, since no more ammonia was added, but colonized by another form of bacteria?

if they are cycled, how did bacteria attain feed to cover essentially 10x the original amounts of surface area, without an actual increase in bioloading?

is there a finite number of canister filters, surface area, that you can add into the loop of circulation and the extra media not become seeded given ample time? Whats the limit for new surface area that can be colonized, without ever changing that original 3 fish bioloading limit?

lastly, what if you pull all the filters at once after 8 mos, does the original tank lack the ability to handle its bioload and free ammonia results? Most aquarists are under the impression we must remove surface area in increments, in order to let the other surfaces build up replacement bacteria, if that's the case then instantly removing the 10x canisters is certain to cause a problem, right?

ya'll caption my questions above and input your answers after each one, checking for themes of agreement or dissention in answers

The results w be linked in both the microbiology of cycling thread and the sand rinse thread

@Lasse will answer those questions. Hopefully I understand your questions. I just finished cycling a 24 gallon sw tank. It has a
16 gallon canister filter, plus 20" prefilter both hold total 1 3/4 CUF of activated carbon and some crush coral for ph control.
Why activated carbon, it has the most surface area, kinda like your example of 10 canisters .

So this is my hypothesis on your example of 10 canisters.

First, all canisters would help cycle tank by 30 days if fish only used.
All canister filters will have certain amount of aerobic bacteria, because speed of water flow and channelling through media, turn over rate (ex: 50 gallon tank x 10 is 500 gph turn over) WILL
determine how effective 1st cannister filters is, then same for second canister and so forth. All canister filters will have bacteria.

Now if fish tank has finish cycle and has fish in it, being feed all is normal. The 10 canister will have aerobic bacteria for ammonia consumption again because 1. water flow, 2. channelling occurring within media, also bacteria will not consume all ammonia with first run through canister, that is why we're told to have X amount of turn over rate per hour for tank size and especially with canister filters.


More to come stay tune.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you so much for participating


I take away from your answer that anywhere water channels, bacteria will be delivered, well stated. I take away the clear answer all filters will be cycled simply by being connected to the distribution loop.

Let me ask this, where does the food to support all that new bacterial mass come from if the original starting ammonia never changed, and we kept adding new surface area for continued colonization

How does a non-increasing complement of ammonia, three fish worth, feed new surface area no matter how much is added? (provided water channeling hydrates all surfaces)

who says three fish worth is all that's getting in ?

how did bac survive in nature before man came on scene, ammonia source ready to add or withhold

the person didn't add it...so the public says the bac don't find feed any other way. Your ammonia additions are it, finito, no other source.


in order for export bacteria to grow in the water column using vodka sugar or vinegar method, an extra source of fuel is required (the vsv) or the bac remain steady state in suspension and there's nothing to skim out. Why doesn't that rule of limitations apply to biofilter biology? Why do they always take over any new substrate simply plumbed in the loop

even ten thousand canister filters... all from three fish, and all by the same time frame?? In fact, the exact time frame it takes to cycle ten thousand canister filters is the same length of time it took to cycle the main tank, by itself. Zero respondents in a forum poll would agree to that. Well 99.8 %




@Brew12 @Dr Reef

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Let me ask this, where does the food to support all that new bacterial mass come from if the original starting ammonia never changed, and we kept adding new surface area for continued colonization

All man made filtration for SW tanks, cannot consume all ammonia on first filtration, so like your example of 10 filters, the second filter kicks in, then third, etc...

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

How does a non-increasing complement of ammonia, three fish worth, feed new surface area no matter how much is added? (provided water channeling hydrates all surfaces)

Again, man made filtration not efficient for consumption of aquatic creatures waste in comparison to nature.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

the person didn't add it...so the public says the bac don't find feed any other way.


Huh?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

in order for export bacteria to grow in the water column using vodka sugar or vinegar method, an extra source of feed is required or the bac remain steady state in suspension and there's nothing to skim out. Why doesn't that rule of limitations apply to biofilter biology

Because out tanks are not as big as the big blue sea.

 

[MasterBacon]

Wouldn't the original bacteria just be diluted across all filters? Making all somewhat colonized. I agree that they would only grow based upon avail ammonia but distributed evenly via new surface area.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Wouldn't the original bacteria just be diluted across all filters? Making all somewhat colonized. I agree that they would only grow based upon avail ammonia but distributed evenly via new surface area.

Also some bacteria multiple in 20-30min, others 8-24 hrs.
@Brew12 is who I learned that from.

 

[MasterBacon]

If after 5 months you removed 1 of the 10 canisters you would remove some of the colony and the rest would have to multiply to account for the load. For Sure!

 

[brandon429]

MasterB thank you too for contributing

Wouldn't the original bacteria just be diluted across all filters? Making all somewhat colonized. I agree that they would only grow based upon avail ammonia but distributed evenly via new surface area.

On that part I want to ask: lets say there were a million bacteria allowed to grow in the tank before we added any canister filters, and what grew the million bacteria was the waste from 3 fish and feed only. a million and a half didn't grow, but a million, as the ammonia coming from fish and feed isn't changing as the months go by and per the tenet we're testing, the public says only the amount of ammonia you add will allow more growth/mass for the bacteria in the water.

so how can extra canister filters be added, even the extreme case of ten thousand of them, and take on any more bac than one million if the feed doesn't increase?

regarding the distribution concept- bac will still be one million, but divided out among the extra canister filters---> when they leave the original surface, is that area now devoid of bac and back to sterile?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

First by saying ammonia, that is vague, which ammonia you mentioning? Free ammonia NH3,ammonia NH4, or total ammonia?

Only you know that , and then we can answer all questions

Your answer may mute what your point is

 

[MasterBacon]

MasterB thank you too for contributing

Wouldn't the original bacteria just be diluted across all filters? Making all somewhat colonized. I agree that they would only grow based upon avail ammonia but distributed evenly via new surface area.

On that part I want to ask: lets say there were a million bacteria allowed to grow in the tank before we added any canister filters, and what grew the million bacteria was the waste from 3 fish and feed only. a million and a half didn't grow, but a million, as the ammonia coming from fish and feed isn't changing as the months go by and per the tenet we're testing, the public says only the amount of ammonia you add will allow more growth/mass for the bacteria in the water.

so how can extra canister filters be added, even the extreme case of ten thousand of them, and take on any more bac than one million if the feed doesn't increase?

regarding the distribution concept- bac will still be one million, but divided out among the extra canister filters---> when they leave the original surface, is that area now devoid of bac and back to sterile?

To a degree, The original surface area isn't a jail, via water movement they can be moved and settle into the new canisters. I don't think the old surface area would be void but lessly populated then before. Remove one canister and the remaining surface area would have to repopulate to take on the remaining ammonia that was left from the colony that was removed with the canister

 

[brandon429]

I'm framing ammonia not by its ionic form but as the limiting nutrient for bac/nh4 is how it largely exists for us but the point was view it as the limiting factor... we're pressing the idea that what humans add for ammonia is the only source they have access to. My trick question part has nothing to do with a chemistry trick im horrible at all math and chemistry no tricks there.

my trick part has to do with the large scope of how bacteria in water gain feed without us having to do anything with it. hint: in the 80s, before bottle bac was for sale and before filtration microbiology was debated, if someone sets up a freshwater tank they had to wait a month before adding fish.

they didn't add bacteria feed, or rotting shrimp EVER, they filled the tank with tap water, added start right from API, and then waited a month. If they cheated, and added fish in a few days cuz they couldn't wait, the whole system turns cloudy and all fish die in 48 hours. But if they waited 30 days, you could add a grip of platies and swords and gups and the system thrived, fish food included. That's the exact same scenario Ive restated here in post one with some extremes...start right doesn't feed bacteria, its sodium thiosulfate. not ammonia.

how did a simple fw aquarium from the 80's build up enough bac in 30 days to handle an instant bioloading of fish + feed, we never gave the tank any ammonia? it got tap water, dechlor, epoxy rocks, plastic plants, a corner bubbler, and not a bit of feed that today's aquarists state is required

For the distribution mode above, that requires no more ammonia sources be avail other than our three fish, so that the bac move among spaces but not reproduce/add more mass due to the limiting feed not being increased.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I started one FW tank, then moved on to SW, 1983 there was bacteria for fresh water and Salt. It came in a plastic flip up lid, quarter diameter size container, red for SW, yellow for FW. In the 1980's the issues was trying to control nitrates. There were denitrator boxes, some you stack, as many as you need. The nurtrifycation cycle was well know then.

Not being hard, talk to me as if I'm a 4 year old.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

how did a simple fw aquarium from the 80's build up enough bac in 30 days to handle an instant bioloading of fish + feed, we never gave the tank any ammonia? it got tap water, dechlor, epoxy rocks, plastic plants, a corner bubbler, and not a bit of feed that today's aquarists state is required

First off, when I was 5 years old, still remember, my mother set up a FW tank 1972 , it had an air pump driven filter, with floss, carbon,
Gravel,etc... point by 1972 the nurtrifycation cycle was well know. She did add fish with water conditioner?

Any other way to start a FW tank, you got me

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I'm framing ammonia not by its ionic form but as the limiting nutrient for bac/nh4 is how it largely exists for us but the point was view it as the limiting factor... we're pressing the idea that what humans add for ammonia is the only source they have access to. My trick question part has nothing to do with a chemistry trick im horrible at all math and chemistry no tricks there.

my trick part has to do with the large scope of how bacteria in water gain feed without us having to do anything with it. hint: in the 80s, before bottle bac was for sale and before filtration microbiology was debated, if someone sets up a freshwater tank they had to wait a month before adding fish.

they didn't add bacteria feed, or rotting shrimp EVER, they filled the tank with tap water, added start right from API, and then waited a month. If they cheated, and added fish in a few days cuz they couldn't wait, the whole system turns cloudy and all fish die in 48 hours. But if they waited 30 days, you could add a grip of platies and swords and gups and the system thrived, fish food included. That's the exact same scenario Ive restated here in post one with some extremes...start right doesn't feed bacteria, its sodium thiosulfate. not ammonia.

how did a simple fw aquarium from the 80's build up enough bac in 30 days to handle an instant bioloading of fish + feed, we never gave the tank any ammonia? it got tap water, dechlor, epoxy rocks, plastic plants, a corner bubbler, and not a bit of feed that today's aquarists state is required

For the distribution mode above, that requires no more ammonia sources be avail other than our three fish, so that the bac move among spaces but not reproduce/add more mass due to the limiting feed not being increased.

You stated sodium thiosulfate. not ammonia.

If you read the manufacturer info on it, even they don't understand exactly how it works, it temporarily detox water up to 48hrs, but bacteria still are consuming it. I use prime

 

[brandon429]

We're having a bit of a comm barrier but in agreement on major themes. I mentioned de chlor only to account for all other additives beyond water, people always want to attribute a cycle to something the keeper added, maybe some readers can find a way that dechlorinators would feed bacteria.

Probiotic additives have always been around as long as people have had septic systems my main point was that in the 80s we weren't told it was required to be purchased when setting up a tank. Not one pet store I ever visited in El Paso during that time ever offered bacteria to me and I've never used it my whole life until recently when I wanted to speed cycle an aquarium less than 30 days.


The point I'm getting at is that if someone even today wants to set up an aquarium and put in all the decorations I mentioned earlier and wait 30 days, it will take a group of freshwater fish without any help other than waiting with water.

After thirty days, the system can process orders more ammonia than it was ever given during the wait

Where did those bac come from if they weren't added by bottle, and how did they feed during the thirty days

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Your right about LFS not informing you. My first FW tank, 1983, got water conditioner, choose my fish. Next day most fish missing heads or their tails. Even LFS didn't tell me not to mix & match certain fish. That when I started reading everything there was on fresh and SW. Point is before the net, books, clubs, and magazines for info. Now R2R for info