This debate will last through eternity! But it's 2020 and have things changed?

[MnFish1]

Good math but that's a 4ppm increase every month and that's where the larger really comes in the long term short term is fine to show quick figures but after 12 months of this thats a 48 ppm overall not good this hobbie is all about long term stability and having such a large amount overall that has to be gotten rid of can lead to problems down the road like gha that wont go away etc

PS - I was only using numbers that would be equivalent to a 70 percent one time change. If you actually go to the link - and put in the numbers - you will see no matter what you do - there will be a nitrate level that your tank will stabalize at - you cant just multiply 4 by 12 - and get 48

EDIT - you can multiply 12 x 4 and get 48 - but - not using nitrate and water changes

 

[MnFish1]

Depending on tank size , I'm thinking a good water changing system would be a better investment than a skimmer . Zeeks , what do you think about that ?

I think a skimmer is a good investment either way....

 

[Lasse]

I think you misread the calculator/my meaning. The way to use it - is to put in your tank volume, then pick the water change volume that is required to bring your nitrate to whatever your acceptable level is. If you, for example - put in 100 gallon tank, 20 gallon water changes for 50 periods (whether 1 or 2 weeks or whatever) - and the Nitrate increases by 5 ppm each period - your nitrate will keep increasing - until about Period 7 - from then on - until Period 50 - it will slowly rise to 20 - and remain there. It doesnt 'keep going up'

See this graph from an earlier post

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Paul B]

Lasse, that graph is above my pay grade.

 

[Lasse]

Not at all Paul. It shows that if you do a 1 % WC every day and that your load of NO3 is 0.3 ppm a day - it will stabilize around 30 ppm NO3 in the water column after a year and never get higher

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

See this graph from an earlier post

Sincerely Lasse

Exactly......... I did. What I didnt know - is how much nitrate increases per period - I didnt want to put in a misleading number - so I chose what I thought would be a high number

 

[Paul B]

Not at all Paul. It shows that if you do a 1 % WC every day and that your load of NO3 is 0.3 ppm a day - it will stabilize around 30 ppm NO3 in the water column after a year and never get higher

Like I said, it is over my pay grade.
For instance to change `1% of water a day, you would have to suppose you, Or "I" knew exactly how much water I have in my tank. My tank is 125 gallons. I don't have the foggiest idea how many liters that is. My tank "probably" has about 80 or 90 gallons of water in it, but I am guessing.

And then know that my NO3 load is 0.3 ppm a day, and test that for a year.
I don't even know what I did yesterday.

I normally just sit in front of the tank with part of a liter of Grand Marnier in my left hand and if the urge strikes me, as it does every 4 or 5 months, I will drive to the beach and collect some water not knowing how many PPMs of NO3 Iam making in a year.

Then I will warm it up, usually by just letting it sit near my tank for a few days or soak my feet in it, then I throw it in. If I get ambitious in 3 months or 8 months, thats when I change water.

Do I think water changes are that important to have a schedule for. Obviously not, but so far it has seemed to work out fine.
Now to figure out how to change 1% of my water a day.

 

[Tankkeepers]

I think you misread the calculator/my meaning. The way to use it - is to put in your tank volume, then pick the water change volume that is required to bring your nitrate to whatever your acceptable level is. If you, for example - put in 100 gallon tank, 20 gallon water changes for 50 periods (whether 1 or 2 weeks or whatever) - and the Nitrate increases by 5 ppm each period - your nitrate will keep increasing - until about Period 7 - from then on - until Period 50 - it will slowly rise to 20 - and remain there. It doesnt 'keep going up'

Actually over time it does go up slowly as you always have leftover enless you change 100 percent of the water lets say you have 10 to start are adding 5 per month and removing 1 each water change at 4 changes per month then you have 10 plus 5 minus 4 with a leftover of 1 plus the original 10 this is just an example see lasse chart on daily 1 percent changes this applys to all water changes as you van see whike yes the graph shows it tapering off it still is on the rise which means at some point you will have to remove the extra remandor aka macro or dsb or skimmer etc peach time enless you can change out the same amount going into the system you will either have a steady increase or decrease yes this does taper off over time but it will still either rise or fall if the same constant is kept I hope this make since if not I will try to explain it better that also not trying to argue just trying to show that if all things are kept the same (never are) over time there is either and jnrease or decrease its near impossible for there not to be

 

[Tankkeepers]

PS - I was only using numbers that would be equivalent to a 70 percent one time change. If you actually go to the link - and put in the numbers - you will see no matter what you do - there will be a nitrate level that your tank will stabalize at - you cant just multiply 4 by 12 - and get 48

EDIT - you can multiply 12 x 4 and get 48 - but - not using nitrate and water changes

Again just becouse the graph ends does not mean it's stable at that number it just means the graph ends if you went out farther you will still see a slight increase over time and this increase has to be removed some other way that tool is a great starting point yes but does not show the whole story

 

[FastandCurious]

I can do a 5 gallon water change in about 5-10 minutes. Most of the time is spent getting hoses out and putting hoses away.

That time period is misleading though. In order to do a 5 minute water change, there are a couple of hours involved in making a huge vat of saltwater to be used for several water changes.

For sure. It takes around 3 hrs for me to get around 10 gal off the bat. Then I can start the process. But I like to look around and inspect every thing and everyone while in in there lol. I look at the clock and an an hour has disappeared. ‍

 

[Tankkeepers]

Anytime you start with somthing and change less then 100 percent you will always have an increase or decrease without accounting for the variable that is in every tank givin at a certain point it dampers off and is less significant but the increase or decrease is still there jump ahead 5 years now you have a tank crash and no clue why

 

[Tankkeepers]

I will add that if you remove the exact amount yes you can stabilize threw only waterchanges but this means everything has to be exact down to the drop along with what is going into the system down to the t with no varieations ever which is improbable to happen as things grow and you woukd have to account for that thinhs dye and that also has to be accounted for otherwise over time you have a slight increase or decrease that has to be adjusted for every so often I hope this make sence

 

[MnFish1]

@Tankkeepers you are wrong - you already said you dont understand the math - assuming a constant xxxxx (nitrate or whatever) - production - the water change calculator will always equalize out at a certain level - thats math - its not voodoo - its not opinion.

 

[MnFish1]

Anytime you start with somthing and change less then 100 percent you will always have an increase givin at a certain point it dampers off and is less significant but the increase is still there jump ahead 5 years now you have a tank crash and no clue why

This is mathematically incorrect.

 

[Tankkeepers]

@Tankkeepers you are wrong - you already said you dont understand the math - assuming a constant xxxxx (nitrate or whatever) - production - the water change calculator will always equalize out at a certain level - thats math - its not voodoo - its not opinion.

Fist off I never once said I dont understand the math

Secondly see exception post but since this is not a perfect world it is not going to happen like it does on paper

Third this is not mathematicaly incorrect as you are using a constant with out a variable and there is always a variable that has to be accounted for when dealing with our tanks

I should have said an increase or decrees yes I left the second part out but if you think you can achieve perfection without variables in keeping a tank then mkre power to ya

I may not be explaining it very well thats my fault but again there is no such thing as a constant in keeping a tank and if you do not account for the variable in 5 years you will have a crash

 

[Tankkeepers]

Also I think I fixed my above post i was not trying to argue that the caculator is incorrect(or trying to argue at all really) or that you can achieve a constant when everything else is constant as you can I was simply trying to say that while the caculator is a very very good starting point dont stop with just that and think everything will be fine I hope this makes since I have a hard time putting thoughts to paper but I do understand the math as that's about all I understand

 

[MnFish1]

Fist off I never once said I dont understand the math

Secondly see exception post but since this is not a perfect world it is not going to happen like it does on paper

Third this is not mathematicaly incorrect as you are using a constant with out a variable and there is always a variable that has to be accounted for when dealing with our tanks

I should have said an increase or decrees yes I left the second part out but if you think you can achieve perfection without variables in keeping a tank then mkre power to ya

I may not be explaining it very well thats my fault but again there is no such thing as a constant in keeping a tank and if you do not account for the variable in 5 years you will have a crash

Yes - I guess it is your fault - no offense - you said you understand the math - but you dont understand the post. Its not a right vs wrong - its about the science - and the science says - If the production of xxxxx is constant - constant water changes will result in yyyyy...... Again - use the calculator - and pick your numbers. PS - If people use Chaeto - or scrubbers - or have (which I have seen) - an extremely low bioload - (fish) - this will be different). We have no disagreement. I never said 'I' could achieve perfection. And yes - it is your fault you are making an argument - without a constant.. I agree. The truth to me - every tank has different needs, parameters, whatever - there is not one solution

 

[Tankkeepers]

Yes - I guess it is your fault - no offense - you said you understand the math - but you dont understand the post. Its not a right vs wrong - its about the science - and the science says - If the production of xxxxx is constant - constant water changes will result in yyyyy...... Again - use the calculator - and pick your numbers. PS - If people use Chaeto - or scrubbers - or have (which I have seen) - an extremely low bioload - (fish) - this will be different). We have no disagreement. I never said 'I' could achieve perfection. And yes - it is your fault you are making an argument - without a constant.. I agree. The truth to me - every tank has different needs, parameters, whatever - there is not one solution

I agree completely again my bad wish what I thought would translate to paper more easily and I could say what I mean

 

[MnFish1]

Like I said, it is over my pay grade.
For instance to change `1% of water a day, you would have to suppose you, Or "I" knew exactly how much water I have in my tank. My tank is 125 gallons. I don't have the foggiest idea how many liters that is. My tank "probably" has about 80 or 90 gallons of water in it, but I am guessing.

And then know that my NO3 load is 0.3 ppm a day, and test that for a year.
I don't even know what I did yesterday.

I normally just sit in front of the tank with part of a liter of Grand Marnier in my left hand and if the urge strikes me, as it does every 4 or 5 months, I will drive to the beach and collect some water not knowing how many PPMs of NO3 Iam making in a year.

Then I will warm it up, usually by just letting it sit near my tank for a few days or soak my feet in it, then I throw it in. If I get ambitious in 3 months or 8 months, thats when I change water.

Do I think water changes are that important to have a schedule for. Obviously not, but so far it has seemed to work out fine.
Now to figure out how to change 1% of my water a day.

The way (I think) it works is as follows - the inhabitants of your tank will respond to what you do - the corals that do not make it are forgotten - and the soft corals that have taken over suggest a successful tank (which it is)...

 

[MnFish1]

Actually over time it does go up slowly as you always have leftover enless you change 100 percent of the water lets say you have 10 to start are adding 5 per month and removing 1 each water change at 4 changes per month then you have 10 plus 5 minus 4 with a leftover of 1 plus the original 10 this is just an example see lasse chart on daily 1 percent changes this applys to all water changes as you van see whike yes the graph shows it tapering off it still is on the rise which means at some point you will have to remove the extra remandor aka macro or dsb or skimmer etc peach time enless you can change out the same amount going into the system you will either have a steady increase or decrease yes this does taper off over time but it will still either rise or fall if the same constant is kept I hope this make since if not I will try to explain it better that also not trying to argue just trying to show that if all things are kept the same (never are) over time there is either and jnrease or decrease its near impossible for there not to be

No it doesnt.